How to raise the skill ceiling

[Eldrath]

In a recent discussion on discord the idea came up to gather suggestions to raise the skill ceiling of Mortal Online 2.

Currently SV is slowing down movement speed, combat animations (swing and charge speeds) to have better prediction and less desync. I´m not really qualitfied to judge this on a technical level, but from I´ve seen it seems to be working. For the sake of argument I think it would be best if we agree that having more accurate prediction and less desync is better.

This slowing down of combat obviously will lower the skill ceiling as it affords more time to react.

Speed though is only one part of the equation and other factors could help bringing the game back on track towards the original vision. I hope we can gather those ideas in this thread and discuss their merit. Ideally when you claim something that is highly contested providing evidence in form of a video could be helpful.

Here is one idea to start things of:

Decrease the blocking arc. Since prediction and desync are improving we can expect players to be able to accurately parry and keep their front towards the enemy. This would enable aggressive players to score back hits around parries.

 

[ThaBadMan]

First off, I cant say I see your claims present in game from testing the patch. Players still dont show correct position or movement and desync is still there in rubberbanding to actual position.

On to ways to increase skill ceiling.
Decrease arcs, both the blocking arc and swing arc can be decreased to increase the skill needed to land hits and to block off incoming dmg.
Make bad hits perform worse dmg while perfect hits increase dmg even further.
Increase stam drain the worse the hit is.
Limit in combat healing as much as possible per individual.
Make charging and swinging weapons faster.
Increase dmg output in general.
Make feinting from a swing to another become a combo where the next attack is faster than a entirely new swing.(think 1/3rd or half a counter speed)
A good dodge.(FOR GODS SAKE NOT ANOTHER DOUBLE TAP)
A charge a la Chivalry Vanguards after sprinting for a certain time.(Could potentially be unblockable but dodgable) Minus being a new animation for all melee weapons needed.

Thats some off the top of my head.

 

[Kiluvian]

As I said in the patch notes thread, I would like to see some sort of impact factor being represented in combat as a result of the differences in each character's strength attribute. It could even be based on the raw physical damage, whichever damage is higher represents a stronger attack, and then there doesn't even need to be any kind of impact attribute. There are a lot of ways to represent it, and I think it should be there to assist with balance in regards to offensive versus defensive gameplay.

Allegedly, some offensive abilities are being worked on to help balance this, but I don't believe that is the correct approach. The current problem is defensive gameplay is too overpowered compared to offensive gameplay. If offensive skills are implemented to balance out defensive gameplay, then implementing some defensive skills down the road will simply result in defensive gameplay being too overpowered again. The current system needs to be resolved first, and to do that, it needs to be completed. They want to simulate more realistic combat, so if it is ever going to work correctly, they need to go all the way and represent impact physics in combat.

EDIT:

I suppose I should elaborate on what I expect in regards to representing impact physics:

Let's set up a scenario in which 2 combatants are counter trading with swords. This is like a 5 minute fight; it pretty much removes the possibility of successfully ambushing literally anyone ever. To resolve this, when a character parries an attack from an enemy with a stronger strength attribute than them, they should receive an impact effect depending on the disparity in strength.

If your strength is lower, but still close to the enemy, there will be no effect and neither character suffers any consequences.
If your strength is noticeably lower, you may lose additional stamina with every parry, or if you're mobile, at least be halted by the force of the blow.
Lower than that, you may take some damage and get knocked back a bit and stumble before you can continue moving around.
When the opponent has overwhelming strength, you might get knocked back and/or down and need to get back up. (Knockdown/Recovery).

 

[Kobalt]

When we talk about "skill" what are we talking about specifically? Reactionary? The obvious answer is to just give the player more options and tools to use that aren't reliant on the "speed" of combat.

 

[Eldrath]

When we talk about "skill" what are we talking about specifically? Reactionary? The obvious answer is to just give the player more options and tools to use that aren't reliant on the "speed" of combat.

Reaction time, decision making, situational awareness, flexibility in tactics and approach. Lets say all the things you need to win a professional counterstrike match.

The thread is to collect these "obvious" tools and options and discuss them.

 

[Goltarion]

make the movespeed and Swing Speed faster And remove the delay after a swing and the turncap. Id rather take some desync with combat that is fun and exciting over desync-free combat that is a slow, boring snore-fest.
I know this is a very generalising opinion, but PLEASE SV, find a way to make combat faster again. Get that MO1 pvp feeling in there!

 

[Eldrath]

make the movespeed and Swing Speed faster And remove the delay after a swing and the turncap. Id rather take some desync with combat that is fun and exciting over desync-free combat that is a slow, boring snore-fest.
I know this is a very generalising opinion, but PLEASE SV, find a way to make combat faster again. Get that MO1 pvp feeling in there!

While I agree with the sentiment it is good that currently high ping players seem to have a much better experience compared to before. The question is where to go from here. I think just going backwards will make SV run in circles like with MO1.

While speed is good it´s not the only thing that can be changed. So I invite you to think and come up with suggestions.

The turncap is noted and could be changed independant from speed I guess.

 

[Kallardian Prince]

Game with global server can't have infinitely high skill ceiling. It's technically impossible. You will never make MO into a game where you can outplay an opponent through split second faster reaction times like fighting games.

 

[Kobalt]

Game with global server can't have infinitely high skill ceiling. It's technically impossible. You will never make MO into a game where you can outplay an opponent through split second faster reaction times like fighting games.

This is very true. The more complex you make something, the harder it's going to be to keep everything in sync. Games like Mordhau, chivalry, m&b, etc can get away with having a lot of stuff because they 1) give you the choice to play on a low ping server, 2) doesn't have as many checks and balances that you would find in an mmorpg like MO2. I think the general complaint is it isn't like MO1, but is that necessarily a bad thing? I mean the die hard, veteran community of MO1 is small. The devs need to aim for a experience that is both familiar and checks many of the mo1 boxes when it comes to features, but at the same time the game needs to actually function and be playable for a vast majority of people (that includes high ping as well). I'd wager that MO1, being the janky mess it was , could barely be considered "playable", and the nearly non-existent player base would be a good sign of that.

The devs are making a compromise, some will hate it and some will understand why it's being made and adjust.

 

[Teknique]

In a recent discussion on discord the idea came up to gather suggestions to raise the skill ceiling of Mortal Online 2.

Currently SV is slowing down movement speed, combat animations (swing and charge speeds) to have better prediction and less desync. I´m not really qualitfied to judge this on a technical level, but from I´ve seen it seems to be working. For the sake of argument I think it would be best if we agree that having more accurate prediction and less desync is better.

This slowing down of combat obviously will lower the skill ceiling as it affords more time to react.

Speed though is only one part of the equation and other factors could help bringing the game back on track towards the original vision. I hope we can gather those ideas in this thread and discuss their merit. Ideally when you claim something that is highly contested providing evidence in form of a video could be helpful.

Here is one idea to start things of:

Decrease the blocking arc. Since prediction and desync are improving we can expect players to be able to accurately parry and keep their front towards the enemy. This would enable aggressive players to score back hits around parries.

Its not unplayable

You can out aim the average player if that's how you want to play. Mix it up with some parries after hit reset, some ballerina spins xd xd and its kinda enjoyable.

 

[Eldrath]

Its not unplayable

You can out aim the average player if that's how you want to play. Mix it up with some parries after hit reset, some ballerina spins xd xd and its kinda enjoyable.

I don´t think it´s unplayable, but I do think the skill ceiling has been lowered by decreasing the speed. I would argue that it´s better for the game if more options are introduced to raise it again.

 

[ThaBadMan]

Def not unplayable, way less fun for sure though.

 

[Apocryphal]

I think a very simple thing that would do quite a bit is remove the concept of 0 dmg. A block should reducedamage, but much less than now, and a parry should still inflict a little damage, would not need to be a lot but just some. That immediatly encourages some more aggresive playing, and just standing and parrying is no longer "free", you need to actually have a plan for your follow-up.

 

[Bernfred]

I think a very simple thing that would do quite a bit is remove the concept of 0 dmg. A block should reducedamage, but much less than now, and a parry should still inflict a little damage, would not need to be a lot but just some. That immediatly encourages some more aggresive playing, and just standing and parrying is no longer "free", you need to actually have a plan for your follow-up.

i think this is very important. there are many reasons game play wise why 0 parry dmg is not healthy. its indirect connected with skill ceiling because this way you cant only rely on your perfect blocking skills (internet connection).

i would even set the parry dmg to 70% of the blocked dmg and would remove the ability to attack after you get parried but you can still block because it makes no sense to eat parry dmg + trade hit when you only slash the enemy with one parry hit.
that means when you parry you lose some life points but you have 1 free hit without the chance to get hit again (of course balanced weapon speed). the opponent can counter parry and both lose some HP.

 

[Dracu]

Heres my go at it

Core Issues i see in current combat:
-Only 2 Windows where one can land damage
-Parrys are nearly impossible to get through with normal attack
-Spamming as viable playstyle (aka gear2win)
-1vX is unnecesarry hard on the one (not calculating fighting in town where you can kite non stop)

Changes to deffense:
-> Dodge mechanic (can be used offensive and deffensive) (Confirmed)
-> Close the hittrade window when doing a counter (To counter spamming as viable playstyle, this is more an issue in 1vX then 1v1)

Changes to offense:
Confirmed -> Kick to open a reliable window for attacker to get through a parry on succesfull kick (Confirmed)
Confirmed -> Special attack, an attack that is unblockable but dodgeable (Confirmed)

With those changes you would:
-Close 1 attack window currently present to improve the 1vX situation and remove spamming as "somewhat" viable playstyle.
-Open 2 1/2 new and realiable attack windows outside of counter trading that are reactable thuss... require skill

 

[Eldrath]

@Dracu
When you write confirmed what does that mean? Is it something @Henrik Nyström mentioned or something more substantial?

 

[Rorry]

I think a very simple thing that would do quite a bit is remove the concept of 0 dmg. A block should reducedamage, but much less than now, and a parry should still inflict a little damage, would not need to be a lot but just some. That immediatly encourages some more aggresive playing, and just standing and parrying is no longer "free", you need to actually have a plan for your follow-up.

This sounds good on paper, but what happens in game is that heavy weapons become the norm and no one bothers to block. (And then mounted combat comes along and there is nothing someone on foot can do.)

 

[Rorry]

Def not unplayable, way less fun for sure though.

Much more fun for Americans, though. There were actually 10 plus people online in US prime time on a week night!

 

[Dracu]

@Dracu
When you write confirmed what does that mean? Is it something @Henrik Nyström mentioned or something more substantial?

Developer update – Alpha combat and server structure - Mortal Online 2

Mortal Online 2 has a very advanced melee system especially for being an mmorpg. It’s unlike any other mmorpg combat system where you control every action in real time combat. This text will try to cover the system and details of the combat, where we stand today and what’s coming next until it’s...

www.mortalonline2.com

 

[ElPerro]

Heres my go at it

Core Issues i see in current combat:
-Only 2 Windows where one can land damage
-Parrys are nearly impossible to get through with normal attack
-Spamming as viable playstyle (aka gear2win)
-1vX is unnecesarry hard on the one (not calculating fighting in town where you can kite non stop)

Changes to deffense:
-> Dodge mechanic (can be used offensive and deffensive) (Confirmed)
-> Close the hittrade window when doing a counter (To counter spamming as viable playstyle, this is more an issue in 1vX then 1v1)

Changes to offense:
Confirmed -> Kick to open a reliable window for attacker to get through a parry on succesfull kick (Confirmed)
Confirmed -> Special attack, an attack that is unblockable but dodgeable (Confirmed)

With those changes you would:
-Close 1 attack window currently present to improve the 1vX situation and remove spamming as "somewhat" viable playstyle.
-Open 2 1/2 new and realiable attack windows outside of counter trading that are reactable thuss... require skill

There is counter play to "spamming" since last patch tho, if you land your counter you can parry again immediately, so its very much possible to parry -> hit -> parry again before they can land their next spam swing.