Fairly Simple Fix To Current Racial Balance Issues

[Kaemik]

In a massive break with my usual posts that say this entire game needs to be overhauled. I've thought on it a bit have some pretty simple fixes to the current balance issues. We're moving stats around here. Little changes but numbers. And not all that many numbers. I'll put the explanation of why I feel these are needed in the 2nd post so the meat comes faster for people with short attention spans.

Fixes​

Fix for Humans​

Change 1 - Roughrider becomes "Adaptable"
+100 primary points. Unconditional

Yes this becomes a must have clade just like the Alvarin speed boosts.

Change 2 - Northern Blooded
Keeps current effect (once that effect actually does anything)
+50 Blocking +50 Endurance

Must have clade for any foot build. Fits well with Kallards (Vikings) and Tindremenes (Romans) being the 2 most northern races and also being races that traditionally have good heavy infantry/shieldwalls.

Change 3 - Southern Blooded
Keeps current effect (once that effect actually does anything)
+50 Riding / Riding Sub-skills

Must have clade for any mounted build. Fits well with Khurites (Mongolians) and Sarducaans (Arabs/Persians) who both had strong cavalry traditions being races located more south in the MO2 map. Sidoians are the other southern race and there certainly were black Africans such as the Berbers/Numidians and Malians that had strong cavalry traditions.

Overall effects. +200 primaries to the general human cav or foot build. +300 to cav+foot builds (Unless that build wouldn't have run endurance) and 2-3 mandatory clades depending on build. Overall makes humans a hella strong race to go for if your objective is versatility, because versatility eats primaries.

Khurite Specific Fix

Str, Buffed to Same As Kallard
Dex, Buffed to max new str
Con, Nerfed to match Tindremenes

No longer a crappy off brand version of Kallards. These change make Khurite a distinct race unlike any other. Alvarin trade health for speed. Tindremenes trade health for attribute total with less damage loss than a Sarducaan. NOTHING trades health for damage. Khurites now would, making them a meta pick for MC and MA. Which you know... makes sense for a freaking Mongolian.

Thursar Fix​

Healthsteal Buff

5% health steal. Constant active effect. Applies to melee, magic and archery.

"1v1 Clade" Replaced

Currently Thursars have a clade that makes the regenerate more health passively in exchange for less received healing. Given Thursars are the largest targets on the field for allied healers... this is an objectively bad clade to pick up if you're anything more than a 1v1 whore.

Instead this clade should give:

+10% increased damage output for 5 seconds after receiving damage. Applies to melee, magic, and archery.

Risar Attribute Totals Matched to Sidoians

Massive overall att buff for Thursars. Puts them in league with humans. Pretty justified if humans are getting +300 combat primaries to set them apart. Makes hybrid Thursars viable once combined with the fact that max int for a 60yo Thursar/Sid is 96 and max int for a build that's actually good is 88. Well below what I would consider "hybrid viable" on builds that don't get 5% healthsteal from magic and +20% damage for 5 seconds after taking a hit.

Overall Effect

Thursars lean more heavily into their role of super damage machines if they can press into the enemy flank a bit. Still outclassed by Ohgs at holding the front line as their bonuses don't do much if they're getting parried but strong enough at their own role they're still good. Now have viable hybrid builds that do less damage than other decent hybrid builds but make up for it with healthsteal and actually having good damage if receiving damage.

 

[Kaemik]

How Races Currently Sit IMO​

Alvarin - Solid

Noteworthy speed advantage. Multipe terrain advantages skilled players can exploit. Good attribute pool. Slightly underwhelming health and damage.

Veela - Powerful for multiple good builds.
Sheevra - Powerful for multiple good builds, a personal favorite.

Ohgmir - Solid

Insanely good tank on a small hitbox. Good damage as a FF or a mage. Solid clades. Terrible attribute total.

Huergar - Meta frontline FF. Some merits as a fat mage. Terrible hybrid.
Blainn - Basically the same damn thing. By the numbers the stat differences between Blainn and Huergar are barely significant.

Humans - Alright/Underwhelming

Generally great to alright attribute totals (Except khurites who are terrible), midrange to good on all stats depending on race, race mixing allows a lot of attribute customization. Have some pretty neat advantages for mages and mounted builds and are otherwise just pretty all around meh.

Sidoian - Met fat mage/MM, otherwise useless
Kallard - Best human FF hands down. Some niche applications, mostly underwhelming by virtue of being human.
Tindremene - Really adaptable race. Some very cool niche applications. Mostly underwhelming by virtue of being human.
Sarduucan - By far the most niche build in the game. Not clearly the best at anything and very clearly not the best at most things. 2nd worse race in the game.
Khurite - Trades significant amounts of health and damage output for a 1.7% faster run speed than Kallards hence why I call them "wish.com kallards" Very clearly a sub-optimal pick at any given role in the game even if you exclude non-human races. Worst race in the game that has it's own unique skin.

Thursar - Underwhelming

High damage output and really, really, good at 1v1s if they take the "1v1 clade" that makes you objectively bad at group fights. Has a massive hitbox if they go for their full damage potential. Terrible attribute total. Not a bad race but just doesn't measure up to Ohgmir and Alvarin.

Thur-Kal - Highest damage race in the game. Terrible psyche. Huge hitbox. Somewhat tanky against non-mages. Only good at FF and outshined by Ohgs
Thur-Tind - Like a Thur-Kal but with more psyche and a bit less damage and fair bit less health. Only other decent pick. Only good at FF and outshined by Ohgs
Thur-Sid - Sid is a mage race and Thursars can't even play hybrids. Objectively useless.
Thur-Sard - Sard is a mage race and Thursars can't even play hybrids. Objectively useless.
Thur-Khur - wish.com version of a Thur-Kal. Garbage just like Khurites themselves.

 

[Rhias]

Honestly, I like Thursar a lot more than Oghmir. Especially the life steal is worth a lot when there are enemy pets around to heal up.
And that passive life regeneration is strong in small scale. Would be a shame if it got replaced.

 

[Konrad]

Humans are already the most versatile builds in the game with the amount of attribute points and overall skill points.
Tindremic Human has the most build options than any other build in the game, they are the best hybrid builds, also you can make builds like MC + MM or MA + MM or MA + MC, death knight, perfect footie / perfect mounted etc.
Statement about Khurities being the worse in this game is wrong you only look at their STR compared to Kallard, where kallard is just a big chunky target with more DMG, where as Khurities are the option which has second best speed on foot in the game after alvarins. They Make for good divers, as they have more HP, DMG, reach and can use heavier armors than alvarin also they can purify themselves and benefit from the versetality of being human skills wise, giving them more skill options.

Also the Thursar - Khurite build you mentioned I'm really confused with that statement as well.
There is a good reason Thursar - Khurite was meta in MO1 and in MO2 hes doing just fine aswell.
We are talking very big damage from thursar and good speed benefiting from khurite build, not the tallest in the game sure so he doesn't have the best dmg bonus but he's also not the first easy mage target. He can still drop A LOT of damage, but he's also decently fast. I honestly think Thursar - Khurite is the best option from all the Thursar builds. Second being Thursar - Kallard but honestly its just a big chunky build that can't see a veela running under his feet.
About their skills the 1v1 clade you mentioned I would have agreed with you when it was introduced but not anymore, that clade can be super powerful in end-game fights, but you need to actually invest a bit in your build and items, with some steps you have the scarriest and almost immortal highest damage output with very fucking good speed scary as fuck thursar footie.

All races in a way have their own cons and pros.
Alvarins make for best dex warriors, dex mages and dex hybrids, sheevra can also go fat mage mm.

Oghmirs are best FF tanks in the game, also are good MC and MA and best fat mages.

Thursars are the best footies in the game. Decent speed, best damage, high hp, best stamina in the game etc.

Humans make best hybrids in the game, you can also make best niche builds in the game such as death knights, mounted hybrids, very good versetile foot / mounted builds, you can make strong mages that will have crap ton of skill points. You want to have EVERYTHING ? sure go human.

They all also have their cons like:
Alvarins have lowest hp, dmg and have lowest armor weight carry in the game.

Oghmirs are the slowest builds in the game everyone can run from them.

Thursars are big targets with no psy but that's actually all for them. They are very strong.

Humans although they can be good at everything at the same time they are not best at anything other than versetality.

So conclusion: The only think I actually agree in this post is about oghmirs that huergars and blainn are the exact same.

 

[Kaemik]

Humans are in a decent spot for mounted hybrids and mages. They also have a niche build or two that fights both mounted and unmounted and can make an ok fighter if that fighter is a mounted/unmounted build. Overall a human fighter is pretty outgunned. And humans really shouldn't be a mounted build only race. These changes actually make humans a viable choice for every single build type. Other races have powerful specializations, humans have more active points making them a solid/more versatile version of any build. Good spot for them to be in.

Also worth noting 90% of the hybrid builds I recommend to general players are Sheevra. They have a good attribute total too, and the speed to make them hella strong at that role.

Thursars are also incredibly hard to recommend. As to them being good for "small group". Small group to me means roughly 3-6 on each side. If you have a single hybrid caster healing the 1v1 clade is trash. It's complete trash in a 2v2 if your 2nd can heal. One of the main clades for a race shouldn't relegate the entire race to the hyper-niche play style of 1v1s and micro groups with no heals.

These buffs are pretty significant. They would be "OP". But Ohgs are "OP". Alvarin are "OP". And I think these buffs would make humans and thursars "OP" in ways unique to them. And when everything is "OP" in it's own way. That's what I personally call balanced. Based on these changes I could in good faith recommend any race to players who come to me for builds depending on what they are going for.

Right now I only recommend a select few human builds and I never recommend Thursars unless people specifically ask for it. I also have an entire speech on why you are flat wrong if you start talking about playing a Khurite (Even 1/4 Khurite) or any Thursar other than Thur/Kal and Thur/Tind. These changes would fix both those issues. Khurites would instantly become my most recommended race for MC/MA focused builds. As they should be per their lore.

 

[Deleted member 44]

Why so dry on the Alvarins? They have the most broken clades in the game. Who cares about damage bonus when you can equip two rings for +44% damage bonus (slash/blunt) while having the best maneuverability in the game.

 

[Kaemik]

Why so dry on the Alvarins? They have the most broken clades in the game. Who cares about damage bonus when you can equip two rings for +44% damage bonus (slash/blunt) while having the best maneuverability in the game.

Because I'm suggesting buffing underplayed races to bring them up to the level of "overpowered" races rather than nerfs. Alvarin are amazing as is, and both Veela and Sheevra frequently get used in recommend builds I make for people. They don't need any more adjustments. Some less good races need to be brought to their level.

 

[Fearce]

I do think that the changes are fair. I would add the following: Human Warcry. So Humans are kind of Leaders in Battle and they play mostly a more hybrid way therefore i would change the warcry to become a 50% mana regen increase buff for allies and self for 20-30 sec. Mana ticks very low and every 3 sec. 30 sec means 10 ticks. You could also make it that this warcry put you on at least 50% mana regen no matter how heavy the armor is you wear.

And like @Henrik Nyström was talking about in his last stream, I would also add the quickdraw clade. I think for a hybrid player like paladins it is mandatory to transition quickly between magic and weapon.

 

[Konrad]

Have you ever tried Thursar in BIG BOY fights wearing steel/tungsteel or cronite ? grab that hp regen clade, get endurance and potion utilisation pop a heal over time potion and trust me bro you don't need no mage, its op in 1v1 its op in small scale and its also OP in big boy fights, you just need to do some investement. The result is you have people hitting you from 10 to like 30 dmg which you heal just as fast.

 

[Kaemik]

Have you ever tried Thursar in BIG BOY fights wearing steel/tungsteel or cronite ? grab that hp regen clade, get endurance and potion utilisation pop a heal over time potion and trust me bro you don't need no mage, its op in 1v1 its op in small scale and its also OP in big boy fights, you just need to do some investement. The result is you have people hitting you from 10 to like 30 dmg which you heal just as fast.

I've played mage in some big boy fights in GK. I always targeted Thursars in shiny armor first because they're easy to hit and have bad psyche. If their own mages don't save them, I kill them first too because that shiny armor means squat against a Tlash.

I'm suprised if you've been in many "big boy fights" you haven't seen Tlash focus fires on big thursars in steel/tungsteel or cronite. I've watched some big boy melees die in about 3 seconds to well coordinated mage strikes.

 

[Konrad]

I've played mage in some big boy fights in GK. I always targeted Thursars in shiny armor first because they're easy to hit and have bad psyche. If their own mages don't save them, I kill them first too because that shiny armor means squat against a Tlash.

I'm suprised if you've been in many "big boy fights" you haven't seen Tlash focus fires on big thursars in steel/tungsteel or cronite. I've watched some big boy melees die in about 3 seconds to well coordinated mage strikes.

anyone can die to them 10 to 20 dmg difference won't change shit to a coordinated mage attack,

 

[Kaemik]

anyone can die to them 10 to 20 dmg difference won't change shit to a coordinated mage attack,

Right but if it's not a precise strike of 3-5 mages all Tlashing you at once, but rather one or two mages easily poking you with Tlash over and over because you're the largest target on the field in armor that's easy to pick out... your own healers are going to make a huge difference. But honestly if I knew a thursar ran the 1v1 clade I'd intentionally heal them less. Why waste my mana on someone who decided 1v1s are more important than my heals.

 

[Banespike]

I would love to see that quick draw for humans. So they are atleast the best at beeing a hybrid.
The 10% magic resist warcry is pretty useless. Maybe higher it, or make it a stam reduce buff or a mana buff or whatever.
Hope batch soon

 

[Fearce]

I would love to see that quick draw for humans. So they are atleast the best at beeing a hybrid.
The 10% magic resist warcry is pretty useless. Maybe higher it, or make it a stam reduce buff or a mana buff or whatever.
Hope batch soon

I would love to see the quickdraw clade and the cleric clade change to have manaregen bottom out changed to 25% doesen't matter how heavy the armor is you wear (while still keeps the 4kg increase what it is right now). So in theory with some int and psy you should be able to maintain at least around 1 mana regen on a hybrid. The reason for this is to buff the hybrid posibility without buffing pure mages. I think if you want to become a pure mage, wearing heavy armor is gonna hurt you because you rely on all your manaregen and you want to avoid wearing heavy armor. But as a hybrid, swinging weapons while from time to time cast a heal on you or your allies, ending up with at least a little bit of mana regen would be amazing.

 

[2Op4Scrubs]

All this mfer said was Buff FFs.

G fking G

He wants to give 400points to humans off of 3 clades? +100 for no fucking reason. "+50 Blocking +50 Endurance" there's 200. "+50 Riding / Riding Sub-skills" Riding is a secondary so that is +0 +50 for mounted combat + 50 for mounted archery, +50 for Mounted magery, +50 for controlled riding.

How could you even suggest something so fucking insane.

Every one cries about tower shields being op, so they add shield weight to armor weight.
Mages always suffer ever patch is endless hard nerfs to mages. "But they reduced time to cast on horse a while ago." Mfer by .5 that is nothing. G fkin G
Yet people fail to see the logical point I always bring up about, horse armor slowing horses down a fuck ton. But players in more KGs of armor have no speed penalty. And only suffer in stamina regen by 9 points. + there are skills to reduce stamina usage when running, swinging, blocking, drawing a bow.
Yet there is no skill to reduce penalties of mana regen.

Mages are forced to gimp them self's just to try and have a chance to survive against a Dex or Psy fighter.
There no skill/attribute to reduce incoming physical damage. "Defensive stance." This is a foot fighters skill and it is hardily worth it for them to take.

That is why I say there should be a Dex mechanic added.
Dodge, There will be a chance to dodge an attack based off of your dex. It would not come in handy against anyone but the dex fighters. Bc you can easily get away from all other races. But Alvarin dex fighters are fucking so god damn op. They need a nurf. As fuck. Fr Fr

Revert mana regen penalty to 4kg of armor. Make the mana per tick higher, I get 3 mana back every tick if im not over 2kg of armor. And when Im at 88% mana regen I get 2 one tick and 3 the next. Make it tick for like 5 or 8 when at 90psy so its actually worth being a pure mage.
Or maybe just add an Alvarin clade for the dodge mechanic, Because chances are you go dex mage if you pick alvarin. They have no survivability against dex fighters. Even if you go dagger mage and gimp your mage abilities your are also gimped on FF skills so they can win off parry's. Where humans have more points and can wear more armor and not fuck up mana as much. And Ogh mages have clades that give them natural resistances to damage, + the huge as fuck HP pool + they can drink double potion for free + 6kg of armor for no points giving them 8Kg of armor for free. What do dex mages get? Tower shields That all other races can also use. And that tower shield alone take the mana down to 88% (which is good, But you dont get full blocking off the shield alone, you need a chest piece on. + they modified the equipment damage%) Pared with 6kg of armor 55-52%
Yes The alvarin gest most survivability against other clades.

But that brings me back to my horse armor slowing horses down point.
And This could be balanced based off of STG, So an average Alvern dex fighter STG is like 75-80, Monkeys and Orcs have well over 100 STG. So it can be balanced like the swimming skill. Where your inventory carry weight and armor weight (Which has double the weight wile equipped when swimming) can reduced max speed by a % of total carry weight.
They figured out how to do it with swimming, it shouldn't be difficult to find a good system with this logic for running speed.

Call me the MLK of Mages.

 

[Kaemik]

All this mfer said was Buff FFs.

G fking G

He wants to give 400points to humans off of 3 clades? +100 for no fucking reason. "+50 Blocking +50 Endurance" there's 200. "+50 Riding / Riding Sub-skills" Riding is a secondary so that is +0 +50 for mounted combat + 50 for mounted archery, +50 for Mounted magery, +50 for controlled riding.

In 100% of mounted builds of all forms I add 100 controlled and 100 of a minimum of one damage type. Some builds I suggest run two damage types mounted. This includes mounted mages and hybrids.

In 100% of foot builds I give it 100 blocking. Mage and hybrids as well. Basically free kills for Veela FF if they don't run it. I do NOT put 100 Endurance in 100% of footbuilds but it's useful in 100% of footbuilds and only gets the cut if something else very important needs to be crammed into the build. Again. Mage, hybrid, whatever, it gets stuck in there unless I have compelling reason to do otherwise.

I don't think you know anything about me if you think I have a pro-FF bias. But you're not very good at designing mages if you don't think every single skill I suggested benefits mages. Particularly human mages who need blocking and endurance even more than alvarin mages.

I specifically chose the skills I suggested because they are universally useful. 100 Generic. 100-150 for mounted builds. 100 for foot builds. Fighter, mage, whatever, those skills are useful to you.

And for the record, I think any halfway decent build maker could see these changes favor hybrids more than anyone else. Hybrid builds are ALWAYS the most point strapped. The essense of building a good hybrid is knowing what skills are hard requirements and being able to make good choices when it comes to what needs to be cut. Jumping in and immediately saying it favors FF betrays total incompetence as a build maker. For a hybrid this is going to be the points they need to max endurance, grab anatomy, fit a terror bird into their build. Grab something HIGH value compared to a fighter just being able to add poleswords, aggressive stance, or some trashy archery subskills.

 

[2Op4Scrubs]

I specifically chose the skills I suggested because they are universally useful. 100 Generic. 100-150 for mounted builds. 100 for foot builds. Fighter, mage, whatever, those skills are useful to you.

None of this is useful to me (or anyone but humans). Because I am a Dex Alverin mage. Not Human. Even if I were a human I would not want this. They are already the most versatile builds in the game and you want to give them 400 more points for free? So they can accomplish even more??? Thats op broken.

I don't think you know anything about me if you think I have a pro-FF bias. But you're not very good at designing mages if you don't think every single skill I suggested benefits mages. Particularly human mages who need blocking and endurance even more than alvarin mages.

I specifically chose the skills I suggested because they are universally useful. 100 Generic. 100-150 for mounted builds. 100 for foot builds. Fighter, mage, whatever, those skills are useful to you.

And for the record, I think any halfway decent build maker could see these changes favor hybrids more than anyone else. Hybrid builds are ALWAYS the most point strapped. Jumping in and immediately saying it favors FF betrays total incompetence as a build maker.

You are such an "Incompetent build maker" you are asking for 400 points for free!!!! WHAT THE FUCK LMAO.

Also Ive said it once Ill say it again. There is no such thing as pure mage build. (there is but its survivability is a complete joke) You are forced into going dagger, or tamer mage. You know its a fact.
You have this idea that because you can cast fulm you are a "Mage" Build. But yet you rely on FF, archery, or a pet. as your primary damage output.

A Mage build to me (and should be to everyone) , Is nothing but magic, No dagger, no pet, no heavy armor, no archery, Just pure magic. Anything lesser is a hybrid.
That is why I am pushing for armor/carry weight to effect move speed. Just as it does with swimming.
Also for a lesser mana regen penetality. Because even as My full mage build with 100int, and 86psy + 4 from trinkets and +3 bouns mana from trinkets. I have 193 mana. I only get 3 mana per tick. And I can only cast 4 fulms, or 5 Tlash b4 I'm out of mana (not taking into account of me having to heal 94hp If get hit once). If I have 2 zombies with me it also impacts my mana very hard (with 100 walker knowledge, Also dont even get me started on the long time to even get the zombies up and ready to fight). Then im looking at like 3 Tlash.

So with all this being said, Make an actual mage build and use it. Before you try and start saying buff hybrids like you know how to balance Mage builds. Bc a human could possible be the best Mage (Pure mage) build in the game. (I did not ever play a human because I was drawn in with the false promise of a balanced speed game play, when in reality Dex FFs need a nurf.)

 

[Matze88]

None of this is useful to me (or anyone but humans). Because I am a Dex Alverin mage. Not Human. Even if I were a human I would not want this. They are already the most versatile builds in the game and you want to give them 400 more points for free? So they can accomplish even more??? Thats op broken.


You are such an "Incompetent build maker" you are asking for 400 points for free!!!! WHAT THE FUCK LMAO.

Also Ive said it once Ill say it again. There is no such thing as pure mage build. (there is but its survivability is a complete joke) You are forced into going dagger, or tamer mage. You know its a fact.
You have this idea that because you can cast fulm you are a "Mage" Build. But yet you rely on FF, archery, or a pet. as your primary damage output.

A Mage build to me (and should be to everyone) , Is nothing but magic, No dagger, no pet, no heavy armor, no archery, Just pure magic. Anything lesser is a hybrid.
That is why I am pushing for armor/carry weight to effect move speed. Just as it does with swimming.
Also for a lesser mana regen penetality. Because even as My full mage build with 100int, and 86psy + 4 from trinkets and +3 bouns mana from trinkets. I have 193 mana. I only get 3 mana per tick. And I can only cast 4 fulms, or 5 Tlash b4 I'm out of mana (not taking into account of me having to heal 94hp If get hit once). If I have 2 zombies with me it also impacts my mana very hard (with 100 walker knowledge, Also dont even get me started on the long time to even get the zombies up and ready to fight). Then im looking at like 3 Tlash.

So with all this being said, Make an actual mage build and use it. Before you try and start saying buff hybrids like you know how to balance Mage builds. Bc a human could possible be the best Mage (Pure mage) build in the game. (I did not ever play a human because I was drawn in with the false promise of a balanced speed game play, when in reality Dex FFs need a nurf.)
View attachment 5095

I think you have a very extreme view about what a mage is, nowhere is written that a mage runs arround in cloth. So a mage in Heavy is still a mage
Also weapons like 1handed swords and daggers are pretty common for mages to use.

 

[2Op4Scrubs]

I think you have a very extreme view about what a mage is, nowhere is written that a mage runs arround in cloth. So a mage in Heavy is still a mage
Also weapons like 1handed swords and daggers are pretty common for mages to use.

That is a hybrid. G fkin G

 

[Matze88]

That is a hybrid. G fkin G

So i guess Gandalf is a Hybrid and not a wizard LOL