Does this game focus TOO MUCH on PvP??

[[CTX] Contractor]

This IS a full loot pvp game. The whole game was built around this idea. The goal was not to build another theme park to put people to sleep. I think you bought the wrong game and need to go back to world or warcrap or whatever clone you were living in.

Warcraft has had more success and longevity then Mortal has ever had or will ever have.

Stop being purposefully ignorant just because you want to put MO on a silver platter.

I love MO but doing this weird comparison and in the process calling another game bad and telling people to leave MO for it is the exact type of mentality people shouldn't have.

How about instead of being like that you actively contribute to make the game & community better.

 

[Kaemik]

This IS a full loot pvp game. The whole game was built around this idea. The goal was not to build another theme park to put people to sleep. I think you bought the wrong game and need to go back to world or warcrap or whatever clone you were living in.

Ah yes. I remember the good old days in World of Warcraft where I was farming and breeding animals at my player house and roaming the ocean in my fishing boat.

Wait... oh. That's right. It didn't have those things. But I do remember cruising the ocean in a fishing boat in Darkfall.

Word of advice. If you are really about the "full loot" life. You want ocean content and boats in as fast as possible. Stealing boats is a lot more enjoyable than ganking people for vendor gear and walker heads.

 

[Albanjo Dravae]

Warcraft has had more success and longevity then Mortal has ever had or will ever have.

Stop being purposefully ignorant just because you want to put MO on a silver platter.

I love MO but doing this weird comparison and in the process calling another game bad and telling people to leave MO for it is the exact type of mentality people shouldn't have.

How about instead of being like that you actively contribute to make the game & community better.

The thing is when people try to push for stupid ass themepark mechanics for a game that has nothing to do with it. Now you talking stupid shit by comparing WOW's success to mortal, they are obviously different markets for different public and we could talk about why WOW had such success but it has nothing to do with Mortal.

 

[Jatix]

While its not necessarily a "pvp game" what people need to keep in mind, is that Pvp is the end primary game loop. It ties everythign together. What I mnean, while you dont have to do pvp, gear, food, potions, scrolls, building fortresses, etc, all have the end goal of pvp.

What I'm saying. You dont have to pvp. You can be an alchemist you make high end potions to sell. But those are probobly being bought by pvp'ers. Thats when gear and things really matter. So the game does need to have a decent pvp focus, because thats what makes the game loop work. With no pvp, a lot of things loose their purpose. A crafter who sells cronite gear doesnt need to pvp. But nobody buys cronite to kill pigs. And while SV could technically try to make the focus more on PVE lie ka lot of other games, I just dont see it working as well here. Nobody wants to go risk ogh to fight advanced mobs when they could get killed by players and lose it. But pvp'ers, who want as big advantages as possible, will buy cronite. No pvp'ers, nobody really needs to buy cronite.

 

[Kaemik]

The thing is when people try to push for stupid ass themepark mechanics for a game that has nothing to do with it. Now you talking stupid shit by comparing WOW's success to mortal, they are obviously different markets for different public and we could talk about why WOW had such success but it has nothing to do with Mortal.

How is anything he asked for a "stupid ass theme park" mechanic. He's asking for sandbox crafting and PvE features. Not fetch quests and scripted storylines.

I think a valid response is "This is the bare bones. That stuff will be in ASAP."

But "GO BACK TO YOUR THEMEPARK NEWB!" is not a valid response. EVE is successful largely because it has a crap ton of content, including lots of PvE.

I think it's even a misconception to say that PvP drives everything in a successful "PvP" sandbox. It works more like this:

The economy is fed by PvP because PvP creates constant gear loss and expensive ventures like sieges.

PvP is fed by the economy because the economy puts people in the world and something worth fighting over.

Neither can stand without the other longeterm. So longterm, PvE should become a major focus. I think it's too early to get overly upset about it. But he's not wrong about where we need to be in a year or two. Ideally it should be where we're at on launch, but Henrik's gotta pay to keep the office lights on and he's not getting any sub money right now.

 

[Kaemik]

Btw. If you want PvP without PvE "Go back to Planetside 2 you newb!"

Full loot games are dependent on there being things worth looting.

 

[Albanjo Dravae]

How is anything he asked for a "stupid ass theme park" mechanic. He's asking for sandbox crafting and PvE features. Not fetch quests and scripted storylines.

I think a valid response is "This is the bare bones. That stuff will be in ASAP."

But "GO BACK TO YOUR THEMEPARK NEWB!" is not a valid response. EVE is successful largely because it has a crap ton of content, including lots of PvE.

I think it's even a misconception to say that PvP drives everything in a successful "PvP" sandbox. It works more like this:

The economy is fed by PvP because PvP creates constant gear loss and expensive ventures like sieges.

PvP is fed by the economy because the economy puts people in the world and something worth fighting over.

Neither can stand without the other longeterm. So longterm, PvE should become a major focus. I think it's too early to get overly upset about it. But he's not wrong about where we need to be in a year or two. Ideally it should be where we're at on launch, but Henrik's gotta pay to keep the office lights on and he's not getting an sub money right now.

We are not talking about EVE or any other mmorpg and their success with or without pvp, this is mortal's forums in case you didn't knew.

The OP is asking for valid things, but when you approach mortal's development by saying something along the lines of "Why all the focus on pvp???" would make one think this person didn't play the game for more than 10 minutes.

Sub money ain't an exuse for poor development agenda, this was proved by MO1. When they had or didn't had economic support their development was overall half baked, and it was a development policy.

 

[Kaemik]

We are not talking about EVE or any other mmorpg and their success with or without pvp, this is mortal's forums in case you didn't knew.

Yes. And EVE is the most comparable successful title (Darkfall was the closest competitor before it died from many of the same problems hurting MO and MO2 today). In any business, you constantly want to be aware of what your closest competitors are doing right and wrong.

EVE has a lot of content including PVE content. Most loot-based PvP MMOs do not.

EVE is major player in the MMO industry. Most loot-based PvP MMOs failed.

If you're developing a PvP MMO and you're not watching that closely, and taking lessons from it. You're doomed to failure. If you're commenting on the forums about a PvP MMO giving the developers advice, you need to be aware of it too. Just about every good title made these days is built primarily on good ideas first implemented in other games packaged in a new way and mixed with just a few original mechanics to create a unique experience. Clones aren't bad because they borrow ideas from other games. They're bad because they don't improve upon them with meaningful innovation.

I think the primary weakness of MO and MO2 s how they try to reinvent the wheel on everything. Like the character creation system is innovative... it's also a hot mess that requires detailed knowledge of the game before you played if if you don't want to in all likelihood have to reroll to fix mistakes you made during character creation. There is no game out there that borrows it's core game philosophy from EVE while including engaging real-time combat and an immersive fantasy setting. That's what MO2 needs to be gunning for. Not being the pioneer of literally everything. Take EVE and make the combat good and set it in an immersive world, and people will flock to it. Because that's meaningful innovation instead of a new paint job.

 

[Kaemik]

Reinforces everything I just said above. This guy originally tried building a game based on a wishlist of features thrown together however he could make them work. A few years into the project he realized his game was garbage that even he didn't enjoy playing. He restarted basically from scratch. His 2nd try was making a game that made meaningful improvements on core concepts from existing successful games and in the end, came out with a game that was fun to play.

 

[Albanjo Dravae]

Yes. And EVE is the most comparable successful title (Darkfall was the closest competitor before it died from many of the same problems hurting MO and MO2 today). In any business, you constantly want to be aware of what your closest competitors are doing right and wrong.

EVE has a lot of content including PVE content. Most loot-based PvP MMOs do not.

EVE is major player in the MMO industry. Most loot-based PvP MMOs failed.

If you're developing a PvP MMO and you're not watching that closely, and taking lessons from it. You're doomed to failure. If you're commenting on the forums about a PvP MMO giving the developers advice, you need to be aware of it too. Just about every good title made these days is built primarily on good ideas first implemented in other games packaged in a new way and mixed with just a few original mechanics to create a unique experience. Clones aren't bad because they borrow ideas from other games. They're bad because they don't improve upon them with meaningful innovation.

I think the primary weakness of MO and MO2 s how they try to reinvent the wheel on everything. Like the character creation system is innovative... it's also a hot mess that requires detailed knowledge of the game before you played if if you don't want to in all likelihood have to reroll to fix mistakes you made during character creation. There is no game out there that borrows it's core game philosophy from EVE while including engaging real-time combat and an immersive fantasy setting. That's what MO2 needs to be gunning for. Not being the pioneer of literally everything. Take EVE and make the combat good and set it in an immersive world, and people will flock to it. Because that's meaningful innovation instead of a new paint job.

You can take certain aspects from other games and stablish to a certain degree simillarities or differences but can't really extrapolate models from other games to Mortal, cuz it wouldn't do any justice to either game. The "need" to be aware about competitor games is relative, and EVE is hardly a MO2 competitor cuz its ment for a different public and we shouldn't even be discussing that.

Theres nothing wrong on using references for development then again extrapolating mechanics does not work.

MO2 is not a new game, its MO1 seccond iteration. It's a game that has its story, development and achievements, the fundamental core of the game is already defined and SV doesn't need to watch closely any other game but their own, to keep an eye in the community feedback and continue to develop according what they and the community considers is worth going for.

Mortal is no clone, there are some games that "share" certain features with mortal but none of them qualify like a clone, this being said its not even worth mentioning that shit.

There are design and information flaws? Yeah of course, like any other game. Maybe one of the biggest mistakes is the information thats not accessible for new players from the starting screen, i agree with that. Like people having to reroll for meta builds or being unable to reset clades and shit like that, those are severe design issues.

They are doing good beeing pioneers in a lot of things, they need to work on more shit thats for sure but i don't see a reason to be copying shit from other games, specially not themepark stupid ass mechanics. The real problem with SV is that whats ment to be new and innovative doesn't end up being a placeholder piece of content like it used to happen in MO1 a lot.

 

[Albanjo Dravae]

Reinforces everything I just said above. This guy originally tried building a game based on a wishlist of features thrown together however he could make them work. A few years into the project he realized his game was garbage that even he didn't enjoy playing. He restarted basically from scratch. His 2nd try was making a game that made meaningful improvements on core concepts from existing successful games and in the end, came out with a game that was fun to play.

This is not mortal's case at all dude, i don't even know why u bring that shit up.

 

[Kaemik]

I'm not saying Mortal Online is a clone. I'm saying it's an Anti-Clone. It's gone so far into the extreme of not being a clone they're reinventing systems that don't need to be reinvented and it's making the entire game worse for it.

It is exactly like the first try in the video I posted above. A wishlist of features cobbled together with far too little thought into the idea of "Does this actually make the gameplay better for the players?" Crazy character creation that requires rerolls. Usage-based leveling has people finding the best way to cheese and macro it instead of just playing the game and having fun. (Though Darkfall did this one too, and it turned out just as well. One of those lessons that should have been learned from competitors failures) The entire reputation/murder count system. A hunger system that has you carefully monitoring everything you eat so you don't accidentally screw your build by getting a bit chubbier. This entire game is a Frankenstein's monster of good and horrible ideas.

Nobody would be here if we were satisfied with how other MMOs have done things. But nobody would be here if we hadn't found a lot of fun in some of the things from those other MMOs that made us see the potential of MMOs and in particular PvP MMOs, and hope that someone could do it all better. They really need to be looking at the things they have screwed up and considering replacing them with already proven mechanics from similar titles. Things like the crafting system and mounted combat that actually show meaningful improvement over how other MMOs have done it in the past they should keep developing themselves. (Though even there, I think there are a lot of ideas that could be borrowed from other games to improve upon the foundation they've already built)

Back to the topic at hand. No MMO has ever been successful without a great amount of PVE content. Even "PvP" MMOs. So yes they need a heavier focus on PVE and crafting over the coming 2 years or there might not be a third. I'm understanding of their constraints and that they are going to have to take more time to achieve this. But every concern the OP stated is valid in the longterm.

 

[Albanjo Dravae]

I'm not saying Mortal Online is a clone. I'm saying it's an Anti-Clone. It's gone so far into the extreme of not being a clone they're reinventing systems that don't need to be reinvented and it's making the entire game worse for it.

It is exactly like the first try in the video I posted above. A wishlist of features cobbled together with far too little thought into the idea of "Does this actually make the gameplay better for the players?" Crazy character creation that requires rerolls. Usage-based leveling has people finding the best way to cheese and macro it instead of just playing the game and having fun. (Though Darkfall did this one too, and it turned out just as well. One of those lessons that should have been learned from competitors failures) The entire reputation/murder count system. A hunger system that has you carefully monitoring everything you eat so you don't accidentally screw your build by getting a bit chubbier. This entire game is a Frankenstein's monster of good and horrible ideas.

Nobody would be here if we were satisfied with how other MMOs have done things. But nobody would be here if we hadn't found a lot of fun in some of the things from those other MMOs that made us see the potential of MMOs and in particular PvP MMOs, and hope that someone could do it all better. They really need to be looking at the things they have screwed up and considering replacing them with already proven mechanics from similar titles. Things like the crafting system and mounted combat that actually show meaningful improvement over how other MMOs have done it in the past they should keep developing themselves. (Though even there, I think there are a lot of ideas that could be borrowed from other games to improve upon the foundation they've already built)

Back to the topic at hand. No MMO has ever been successful without a great amount of PVE content. Even "PvP" MMOs. So yes they need a heavier focus on PVE and crafting over the coming 2 years or there might not be a third. I'm understanding of their constraints and that they are going to have to take more time to achieve this. But every concern the OP stated is valid in the longterm.

The systems are not made by request of the community, its part of "henrik's vision" you wrong again there.

And i don't see anything wrong by making new systems (that are obviously based of other systems) instead of copypasting features from other games, the problematic is not to do something new is the ability to finish it or pulish it enough for being meaningful.

You keep talking about MMO's in plural and we still in mortal's forums. i don't see the real value of analizing mortal by comparing it to other games, its the most dumbass shit you could do bro why u keep pushing for that, u trying to show us how many games u have in steam library or something?

 

[Kaemik]

Because the lessons learned from the successes and failures of other MMOs are far more applicable to Mortal Online than you give them credit for. And a straight copy-paste of systems from other games isn't what I'm advocating. I'm advocating implementing ideas that work for other games in ways that work for MO2. Obviously, you have to adapt the mechanics but you don't have to build it entirely from the ground up with no consideration for what other games did when you can borrow 90% of the system from games that have already used it successfully.

Primarily I'm saying, "More quality PvE = Healthier Game" is a universal contents from all MMOs. And I'm saying that in the plural because it's true in the plural. There is nothing so unique to Mortal Online that this lesson learned from years of development of every damn form of MMO under the sun pretty much doesn't apply to Mortal Online. Mortal lumps nicely in with Darkfall, EVE, Albion Online, Crowfall and all the other PvP MMOs where this lesson has proven true because there are no special mechanics in MO2 that diminish its relevance those games don't have.

Another constant I'd apply is that there is ALWAYS a way to game usage-based leveling in games. From Elder Scrolls titles like Oblivion and Skyrim to more comparable sandbox MMOs like Wurm Online and Darkfall people always find ways to game the fun out of these systems with efficient grinding techniques. And while that works out alright in a game like Oblivion or Skyrim where the only person harmed by you macroing and jumping in place for an hour or whatever is you, it's always worked out poorly in competitive multiplayer settings like an MMO. Again. Universal. Nothing in Mortal insulates it from the facts I'm spitting out right now.

And again we find solutions in other games. Most games give XP based on things such as killing a monster which players do during the course of normal gameplay as intended, cannot be macroed, and is far harder to find ways to game. And other games have shown that this can even be applied to games with skill levels instead of character levels by using "pooled XP" as the adaption mechanic. In other words, Mortal Online would have a much more enjoyable leveling system if everything you killed gave Action Skill XP which you could then allocate to the action skills you want to level. Similar to clade gifts actually but hopefully still roughly as fast as the current leveling system. Instead I'm using Auto Hotkey again for the first time since I played Darkfall. This game's leveling system's only saving grace is the fact I'll only be dealing with it for a couple days per account because of macros.

 

[[CTX] Contractor]

The thing is when people try to push for stupid ass themepark mechanics for a game that has nothing to do with it. Now you talking stupid shit by comparing WOW's success to mortal, they are obviously different markets for different public and we could talk about why WOW had such success but it has nothing to do with Mortal.

Sorry I have to disagree.

I'm a fan of both, and I find it ignorant to call one crap and the other gold when one holds much more success over the other. This is the same as saying certain types of music are 'trash' but then they keep making it and being successful with it, clearly YOU find it that way but not others.. to the point that they make a healthy living off of it.

But yeah what @Kaemik said honestly.

 

[Albanjo Dravae]

Sorry I have to disagree.

I'm a fan of both, and I find it ignorant to call one crap and the other gold when one holds much more success over the other. This is the same as saying certain types of music are 'trash' but then they keep making it and being successful with it, clearly YOU find it that way but not others.. to the point that they make a healthy living off of it.

But yeah what @Kaemik said honestly.

WOW is a themepark model videogame, if you find that statement offensive its up to you. Some people like that kind of content and who are we to judge whatever the fuck someone likes or not, what i believe that dude ment on that comment is that both games offer different experiences and if you like that kind of themepark model WOW is a nice alternative, was it pejorative? well yeah, thats obvious.

Its like you like chocolate and i like pizza and you tell me to put chocolate on my pizza, will you get offended if i tell you to fuck off and go to starbucks?

 

[[CTX] Contractor]

WOW is a themepark model videogame, if you find that statement offensive its up to you. Some people like that kind of content and who are we to judge whatever the fuck someone likes or not, what i believe that dude ment on that comment is that both games offer different experiences and if you like that kind of themepark model WOW is a nice alternative, was it pejorative? well yeah, thats obvious.

Its like you like chocolate and i like pizza and you tell me to put chocolate on my pizza, will you get offended if i tell you to fuck off and go to starbucks?

Ignorant doesn't mean offensive.

I was implying it's not smart to call something successful crap, and the other thing which isn't or hasn't been successful gold.

I do not disagree on the idea that they are different - but the solution to a games problem, especially Mortal Online which is suppose to encompass many playstyles, is not to tell them to go play a different game. If ANYTHING it's in a players best interest to have as many people play the game as possible.

The moment someone tells you to quit MO is the moment they care more about their own self interests then the good of the game.

And even though I shouldn't have to say this... If someone doesn't want to genuinely play the game, they wont. They'll play it, find out it is not for them, and move on. No one needs to tell anyone not to play.

 

[Albanjo Dravae]

Because the lessons learned from the successes and failures of other MMOs are far more applicable to Mortal Online than you give them credit for. And a straight copy-paste of systems from other games isn't what I'm advocating. I'm advocating implementing ideas that work for other games in ways that work for MO2. Obviously, you have to adapt the mechanics but you don't have to build it entirely from the ground up with no consideration for what other games did when you can borrow 90% of the system from games that have already used it successfully.

Primarily I'm saying, "More quality PvE = Healthier Game" is a universal contents from all MMOs. And I'm saying that in the plural because it's true in the plural. There is nothing so unique to Mortal Online that this lesson learned from years of development of every damn form of MMO under the sun pretty much doesn't apply to Mortal Online. Mortal lumps nicely in with Darkfall, EVE, Albion Online, Crowfall and all the other PvP MMOs where this lesson has proven true because there are no special mechanics in MO2 that diminish its relevance those games don't have.

Another constant I'd apply is that there is ALWAYS a way to game usage-based leveling in games. From Elder Scrolls titles like Oblivion and Skyrim to more comparable sandbox MMOs like Wurm Online and Darkfall people always find ways to game the fun out of these systems with efficient grinding techniques. And while that works out alright in a game like Oblivion or Skyrim where the only person harmed by you macroing and jumping in place for an hour or whatever is you, it's always worked out poorly in competitive multiplayer settings like an MMO. Again. Universal. Nothing in Mortal insulates it from the facts I'm spitting out right now.

And again we find solutions in other games. Most games give XP based on things such as killing a monster which players do during the course of normal gameplay as intended, cannot be macroed, and is far harder to find ways to game. And other games have shown that this can even be applied to games with skill levels instead of character levels by using "pooled XP" as the adaption mechanic. In other words, Mortal Online would have a much more enjoyable leveling system if everything you killed gave Action Skill XP which you could then allocate to the action skills you want to level. Similar to clade gifts actually but hopefully still roughly as fast as the current leveling system. Instead I'm using Auto Hotkey again for the first time since I played Darkfall. This game's leveling system's only saving grace is the fact I'll only be dealing with it for a couple days per account because of macros.

I understand what you say and its valid, can't base your entire development on other games either (i wouldn't). But yeah there is value in aknowledging certain game mechanics that have proven to be pragmatic and functional in other games and the extrapolation of literal mechanics wouldn't work because games, specially mmorpgs are somewhat delicate ecosystems, specially mortal cuz its a weird ass competitive game among other things.

Some ideas from SV are spectacular in paper but when they get implemented" for some reason we can't really know (seb skills) shit gets dumbed down, or cuz QA team is not really up for the task or the people deciding the content are just stubborn or neglectful.

In paper action trained skills sounds way better than having a universal experience pool from defeating any creature but then again the repetition of actions during a massive time (time sink mechanics that everyone loves and defend saying its long term progression) turns it so tedious that macroing starts being an option.
So, instead of copying mechanics from other games i think the real treasure lays in the repurpose and tweak of interesting mechanics mortal already has, we could discuss how all we want but SV won't ever aknlowledge that because they don't change shit, whats done is done, and thats their standard development policy unless they start showing more flexibility and less stubbornness.

 

[Albanjo Dravae]

Ignorant doesn't mean offensive.

I was implying it's not smart to call something successful crap, and the other thing which isn't or hasn't been successful gold.

I do not disagree on the idea that they are different - but the solution to a games problem, especially Mortal Online which is suppose to encompass many playstyles, is not to tell them to go play a different game. If ANYTHING it's in a players best interest to have as many people play the game as possible.

The moment someone tells you to quit MO is the moment they care more about their own self interests then the good of the game.

And even though I shouldn't have to say this... If someone doesn't want to genuinely play the game, they wont. They'll play it, find out it is not for them, and move on. No one needs to tell anyone not to play.

Sometimes i like to eat a cheeseburguer and they are really popular around the world, like Mcdonalds. But i rather eat some gourmet shit instead, both valid and the success is determined by a bunch of factors unless you think the success lays only cuz its a "good" quality product and the success is determined by number of sales and profit.

If a turd had good packaging people would buy it with their eyes closed. And its completly fine.

Im not a SV developer, but if i were i wouldn't implement crap only to satisfy certain customers and this is exacly what Henrik said over the years of MO1 development, this game is ment for certain public don't expect it to be something else.

And you are right, it's a stupid fanboi children shit to tell someone to go play something else, we can agree on that.