Do you think Armor should give a movement speed penalty?

[Tzone]

How is that punished too much? I am sitting at 84% stamina regen when wearing 28kg armor... That is a minor inconvenience. The benefits of Heavy Armor is too good with almost no downside. Like 100 primary points and -10 to -15% stamina regen for 65+ slashing and piercing defense?

84% stamina regen is pretty bad. Most high level players look at 92% penalty and think thats harsh. Stamina is everything in this game, you need every bit and is why you see no higher level players using shields because they cost a extra 10% stamina when you block. The game was pretty bad at the higher skill scene with the hidden heat debuff in effect, you seen people complain for months about that "bug" for a reason.

 

[Tashka]

I think as the game aims to be realistic there should definitely be a speed difference, you shouldn't be able to run the same speed with 30kg metal on than naked. This could be compensated by increasing the naked movement values rather than decreasing the armored ones though. SImilar to how horse speed is affected by armor, although I think it is only armor type not weight currently idk?

But also other avenues of what armor does to your stats should be explored.

Trained people can usually run at the same speeds despite additional weight if it's evenly distributed. You just have to apply more force as you get heavier, but our running speed is more limited by our anatomy i.e. skeletal structure, muscule composition etc. So if the armor is of good quality, you should be able to run at the same speeds but run out of stamina faster - much faster actually. Your body will have trouble dissipating heat, close helmets make it more difficult to breath, again you need to apply more force to run at the same speeds, which all results in getting tired quickly.

 

[Tzone]

Trained people can usually run at the same speeds despite additional weight if it's evenly distributed. You just have to apply more force as you get heavier, but our running speed is more limited by our anatomy i.e. skeletal structure, muscule composition etc. So if the armor is of good quality, you should be able to run at the same speeds but run out of stamina faster - much faster actually. Your body will have trouble dissipating heat, close helmets make it more difficult to breath, again you need to apply more force to run at the same speeds, which all results in getting tired quickly.

Yep the funniest things is when people who dont know about hema and history start talking about realism.

Most of the time when people try to use realism in a argument they are pushing non realistic things.

 

[tumor]

Nerfing speed will only result in the complete ditching of all heavy armor. Speed is the most important stat in this game by a long shot. There needs to be more incentive to wearing lighter gear i agree.

 

[Tashka]

84% stamina regen is pretty bad. Most high level players look at 92% penalty and think thats harsh. Stamina is everything in this game, you need every bit and is why you see no higher level players using shields because they cost a extra 10% stamina when you block. The game was pretty bad at the higher skill scene with the hidden heat debuff in effect, you seen people complain for months about that "bug" for a reason.

Well 10% stamina loss is pretty extreme for a combat system that is based on parries. I don't see that many players wearing medium armor though. And if we just multiply 360 stamina (which is about the average for a full mellee build) to 0.84, we get 304, which is basically around what most mages get. Not sure if such a multiplication is a correct way to determine the effect of stamina regen penalty, but it think it's close enough. And it's not really fair i think - and mind you we're talking about one of the heaviest armors in the game. It's not like mages in this game's world aren't trained for war. Maybe if strength didn't affect stamina pool it would be a bit better.

 

[iiell]

Trained people can usually run at the same speeds despite additional weight if it's evenly distributed. You just have to apply more force as you get heavier, but our running speed is more limited by our anatomy i.e. skeletal structure, muscule composition etc. So if the armor is of good quality, you should be able to run at the same speeds but run out of stamina faster - much faster actually. Your body will have trouble dissipating heat, close helmets make it more difficult to breath, again you need to apply more force to run at the same speeds, which all results in getting tired quickly.

Yep the funniest things is when people who dont know about hema and history start talking about realism.

Most of the time when people try to use realism in a argument they are pushing non realistic things.

I'll just leave this here:

 

[Tashka]

I'll just leave this here:

And it is supposed to prove... what?

 

[Kaemik]

Seems like extremely solid evidence that heavy armor would slow the wearer down. I mean it's not a peer-reviewed study but it's the same guys running the same course in light and heavy gear and getting significantly slower times with the heavy gear.

Not important to the fun gameplay argument but pretty important to the secondary argument on realism happening here.

 

[Tashka]

Seems like extremely solid evidence that heavy armor would slow the wearer down. I mean it's not a peer-reviewed study but it's the same guys running the same course in light and heavy gear and getting significantly slower times with the heavy gear.

Not important to the fun gameplay argument but pretty important to the secondary argument on realism happening here.

It is an obsticle run. Yeah lifting your body with one hand and jumping over an obsticle, crawling under an obsticle isn't easy if you have 30kg of additional weight on you. And they clearly got tired fast which kinda proves my point, but again, it's not exactly "running".

 

[Turbizzler]

Armor no matter if evenly distributed or loading weight onto the shoulders and hips, will slow down the wearer and exhaust them. Increased respiratory response from moving while under load is exhausting. Throw travelling in mud, sand, through thick bush or up elevated terrain + rocks into the equation and the exhaustion levels increase significantly due to the body requiring more energy reserves and oxygen to keep up with the muscle fatigue - On top of increased joint and back pressure.

People bearing heavy weight while moving, yes, they can move at their fastest speed - But only for a short burst, before muscle fatigue and respiratory pressure kick in and their speed gradually reduces. Now there's the aspect of combat stresses which not only affect the mental side of things, but physical with cortisol and adrenaline release. These things can make people have longer sustained performance, until things like the adrenaline ware off, and then you get hit with adrenaline fatigue(which sucks btw).

Outside of combat, moving long distances while under load, will affect your performance when the fight comes too, if there's limited rest, hot temperatures etc There's so much that plays into a persons ability during combat while under load. Speaking a lot from personal experience here, not in knights armor or antiquity era armor - But modern plate carriers with up to 40kg+ worth of shit on my back, while in peak Afghan summer.

End of the day, this is a game and the game does need more stamina for 1vX reasons. I do agree heavy armor needs some sort of adjustments, but it would just make it useless unless other areas are tweaked too.

 

[Tzone]

Seems like extremely solid evidence that heavy armor would slow the wearer down. I mean it's not a peer-reviewed study but it's the same guys running the same course in light and heavy gear and getting significantly slower times with the heavy gear.

Not important to the fun gameplay argument but pretty important to the secondary argument on realism happening here.

Well its a obstetrical course where the user wears movement restricting gear in a bout of agility not running. And its not a peer reviewed study it was a exhibition.

This is all talking about realism and not the facts around how it would be bad for the game design and balancing.

 

[Kaemik]

It is an obsticle run. Yeah lifting your body with one hand and jumping over an obsticle, crawling under an obsticle isn't easy if you have 30kg of additional weight on you. And they clearly got tired fast which kinda proves my point, but again, it's not exactly "running".

I see your point. A straight sprint would be a better measure of movespeed while the obstacle course seems to show stam drain. I would definitely say it's strong enough evidence that if the goal is realism we should be making players with heavy armor significantly slower over long distances at least.

I kind of like stam better than movespeed anyway. Stam can also translate into your ability to use a weapon and that's the build I think is most lacking. Builds that armor down to enhance physical offensive capabilities.

Realism or not, lightly armored berserkers are just a build I wish was much more viable in this game. Of course part of the issue is there is no real cost balance among lighter armors while more expensive metals tend to be solidly better for heavy armors.

 

[Tashka]

we should be making players with heavy armor significantly slower over long distances at least

Not arguing that. It should deplete stamina much faster *when sprinting*, probably additional speed debuff should kick in at say 50% stamina but it would be too much for the sake of game balance.

 

[Kaemik]

Yeah. The one issue with tanky builds is that there is only so much benefit to tanking in a PvP-focused game. Magic aggro mechanics aren't thing in PvP, and while you still see tanks in some pure PvP games despite that, they usually make up for their lack of aggro with really good crowd control. Something MO2 lacks any form of.

But my problem with a lack of lightly armored builds is like... Kallardian padded was the lightest armor in the game until the addition of robes. Most of the light armors sets look like warrior armor. But they're all trash for any type of warrior that isn't a hybrid. Like I said earlier if you don't have magic and run less than 15kg your build is objectively garbage.

The original trailer shows a Kallard dual wielding 1h axes in Kallardian padded but based on what we've seen so far every part of that is garbage except the dual-wielding which apparently was trash in MO1 and is an unknown variable in MO2.

This game needs a reason for warriors to armor down. But if it gives that, it also needs to provide more reasons to armor up. Armor balancing is just terribly done in general in MO2 and it leads to only a few options really feeling viable.

 

[iiell]

This is all talking about realism and not the facts around how it would be bad for the game design and balancing.

Reducing movement speed for greater protection is not bad for game design. What is bad for game design is when you have 3 types of armor, all dramatically different for protection, but virtually identical in all other aspects, except mental (magic) ability. If stamina is the only penalty, it needs to be dramatically rebalanced. Adding 20+kg of weight to you would result in much higher energy expenditure. In fact, the University of Leeds proved this in a study they did.

 

[Tashka]

Reducing movement speed for greater protection is not bad for game design.

Just straight reducing speed is terrible for game design. No one would wear heavy armor period. The game doesn't perfectly reflect the realities of medieval combat. It doesn't even begin to in fact. If we reduce the running speed in heavy armor based on "but this is how it was irl!" then we should also make swords practically useless against heavy armor, steel+ at least, and mages and such in ragged cloth should go mercy after one good hit.

 

[iiell]

Just straight reducing speed is terrible for game design. No one would wear heavy armor period.

So no one plays Ohgmir then, right? Your logic is already flawed.

 

[Tashka]

So no one plays Ohgmir then, right? Your logic is already flawed.

I know many people who play ohgmirs and wish they played veelas instead, now imagine if heavy armor affected speed. Veelas wouldn't wear it because that would go against the whole purpose of picking a veela and medium armor is good enough, and oghmir... well no one would be playing them. What's the point of being able to wear the heaviest armor in the game, what's the point of the pipe, if veelas can just troll you with footwork and bandage right in front of you? Hell a little less speed on an oghmir and veelas will be winning 1v1 against them with nothing but bow.

 

[Kaemik]

The question is, if you spec entirely into survival, what is the payoff? Being the last person standing to watch your team die? What function does a tank serve in a PvP scenario?

If you provide a good answer to that question then heavy armor ohgmirs with a shield will be played even if there are meaningful downsides for heavy armor / meaningful upsides for light armor.

One thing I would mention. I don't think the idea of CC in general is entirely against what MO2 stands for. Darkfall had CC and it worked fine in a skillbased game. What Darkfall lacked is HARD CC. Hard CC being anything that entirely shuts you down / makes you lose control of your character such stuns, knockdowns, roots etc.

But Darkfall had gravity wells, blind effects that obscured your screen instead of just entirely making your attacks miss etc. And I'm always a fan of debuffs. Potentially adding in some debuff / soft CC abilities for non-magic builds and increasing their effect based on character armor weight could actually give tanks a niche in this game.

Conversly buffing allies or abilties that redirect damage from an ally to the tank can create a cool niche for tanks as well. One of my favorite characters I've ever played in a PvP game was in Crowfall where I played a tanky frontline healer that did healing to nearby allies based on the damage he absorbed with his shield. Only healer I've ever played where I would intentionally fling myself into harms way.

 

[iiell]

I know many people who play ohgmirs and wish they played veelas instead, now imagine if heavy armor affected speed. Veelas wouldn't wear it because that would go against the whole purpose of picking a veela and medium armor is good enough, and oghmir... well no one would be playing them. What's the point of being able to wear the heaviest armor in the game, what's the point of the pipe, if veelas can just troll you with footwork and bandage right in front of you? Hell a little less speed on an oghmir and veelas will be winning 1v1 against them with nothing but bow.

I know plenty of Veelas who wish they were an Ohgmir in group battles and try to play like they are. This game is not balanced around 1v1 in the slightest. Veela already wins 1v1 against Ohgmir because, if they are losing, they just run away. In fact, Veela wins 1v1 against every other race because they can just run away when they are losing and constantly reset the fight. Veelas can already do everything you are saying to an Ohgmir....lol