Discussion on MO2 skill pool separation (trade/combat)

[Necromantic]

I guess I'll have to repost this here now.

Hello, old friends and frenemies.

I'm bored right now so I thought I might make my opinion known and see what others think.

I personally really dislike the decision to have separate pools.
What it does is it will always disadvantage someone who has no interest in combat and kind of force them to pick up some whether they want to or not to get the most out of their character. A fully combat focused character can basically put as many points into trade on top of their combat as a fully trade focused character. I assume there will be some things in their design to limit specialization (at least I would hope so), but I don't see any way they could negate that big disadvantage they are giving the full trade play style or really any play style that doesn't want to invest all that much into combat.
MO already had that problem where the whole world was mostly a PvP world, with relatively little to do for most other people with some exceptions, this would even make that worse. Now you can disregard other play styles even more because everyone can be part of the combat!
You can argue: Well now trade characters can do combat too. But it's a fact that a lot of them don't care or want that to begin with or some just want to specialize in one thing. Or even those that for various reasons just can never be good at it. Good design should make room for most play styles, not turn everyone into a hybrid. This is basically the opposite of a good solution to the problem of making different play styles viable.
If anything I would have much preferred a system with synergies like if you are a miner you get some bonus to fighting with pickaxes because you know them well or if you are a good sword fighter you know some stuff about the weapons and get some bonus to crafting it, even if not mastery.

On top of that it seems completely arbitrary and like all it's there for is for the people that don't want to focus on one or the other to not complain about the one character limitation. I say all this as someone who does enjoy combat and doesn't really do much focused crafting outside of feature exploration. And I don't like the one character limit either because I do enjoy playing different play styles, that includes completely different builds or races. I'd still want a Blainn and a Kallard and not have to settle for one for everything. I do value some roleplay in my "roleplaying" games, not to mention the factual changes these things have on gameplay.

Then comes the question of what to define as combat and what as trade. Is taming combat or is it trade? What is breeding?
Is riding or swimming related stuff going to be combat or trade? So will it cost trade or combat focused people more?
It's just not something you can separate easily.

I'm personally very much into in-depth specialization with choices that make a difference and have both advantages and disadvantages. And this basically goes against all that, no matter if they add some specialization on top of that.

-

In response to what some people have said in the previous thread:

It's not more options. It's not an option when it's not optional and has no consequence to it. It's just more stuff with less consequences.

If they flat out gave you more skill points and you'd have to choose wisely what to spend them on that would be an option, this is not. And you could still do the same thing if you wanted to, just with actually having to lose out on some other things.

I'd much rather have two characters that I can play with different races, setups, play styles where I can fully decide and have advantages and disadvantages for my decisions than have one character that can somehow be the best at whatever combat skills he wants to do and the best at whatever trade skills he wants to do. All it does is hurt people that want to specialize and invest in one field.

Only having one account doesn't mean much. People that want to can still just make multiple Steam accounts and then have even more advantages.

-

Just my too many cents, so what about you?

Maybe this should be put to Feedback/ Suggestions but I see it as a general discussion for now.

 

[Solairerection]

The way I see it with separate pools is that a crafter can put points into combat "if he wants to", and a combatant can put points into crafting "if he wants to". No forcing from either side, if you don't want to either craft or fight, there are people there for you who can do that.

I can understand your point of view, it will definitely allow for a very diverse playerbase where people are engaging with eachother in a different way than many people are used to. For me personally I don't like being too dependant on others, because they might not be around when I need them for various tasks, so for me this is a welcome change, as I don't have to buy a tonne of characters to keep sufficient "just incase".

I think the key lies in how many of the skills will be a "necessity" for every-day gameplay, the more you need something the more inclined you are to make it yourself for conveniance sake. I guess it will be quite a task to make items and skills meaningful without forcing them on players.

 

[Phen]

Mhmm.... To start, more skill points over all means higher focus into any particular skills you choose. For those like myself who craft and do odd ends a lot. Being able to provide us with the ability to run away as a butcher would help a bunch. No need for real combat skills but the basic skills that had to be dropped just to max your crafters properly, it truely made disabilities.
Trying to remove disabilities while enhancing the depth of a character would be my personal idea of how they should approach the new skill system.
If they choose to spread out the points based on trades, armor/weapon types, and general skills. It could make building very specific roles and would allow a more even ground when non combat players who want to travel by foot or mount. If they can truely out smart an enemy, why not add a more general set of skills on top of specialized skills. At that point a new player would have the chance to escape, if they have at least ran around enough that is... plus not stopping them from learning different trades /weapons /armors while being somewhat viable just based on real life skill not just ingame skills.
Although I fell in love with MO because of the lock down of skills and how a character has a strong role if used properly. To see MO2 want to grow more from the skills they have established. It will be interesting to see what they have in store for us.

 

[KermyWormy]

It never made much sense to me that just because I was a full-time weaponsmith or whatever I was totally incapable at doing other basic physical things like running about or swinging a weapon, or swimming etc, it was a forced mechanic that logically didn't make much sense to me, so for me at least I see this new separation as an improvement based solely on a quality of life improvement that also makes logical sense.

Also I don't see how a crafting character picking up combat skills because now they can as any different from a combat character picking up a crafting skill because now they can, that's the same thing and both are options, ignoring that other side of your build is just a bad option that doesn't make sense from a quality of life perspective.

However, I do kind of see what you're saying Necro from the perspective that If I'm only interested in Crafting that I have no advantage in the area of my expertise and focus as someone who is primarily focused on Combat as they can craft just as well as I can, and I also have no inherent disadvantages in my secondary area either. This solution is way more in line with the status quo for nearly every other MMORPG where crafting is just a secondary choice you make on top of a combat character. And that choice is boring because the crafting is always secondary to the combat, it's just something you do because you can.

So....now I feel like I agree with your premise because we're homogenizing the game into what we've already been playing since forever...but I can't think of an alternative really that is better than what we had and what has been proposed for MO2. There is certainly economic consequences to this choice which have their very own pros and cons in relation to game population because there will inherently be more crafters in the world than before regardless of population size, so supply for all materials and goods will be higher, and generally speaking prices will be held lower.

But If the solution was simple or obvious we'd probably have it in a game already.

Maybe a compromised solution is something like having enough primary skills in the combat tree that aren't inherently useful to all fighters or skills that are useful to only certain play styles so that they are far more niche, meaning they aren't 100% Meta ever so that a person who wants to primarily craft and has no interest in combat whatsoever can make a choice as to how many base combat skill lines they want to invest in to have a good quality of life in doing normal stuff, running about or defending themselves, but then be able to make a choice and invest enough into some of these niche skills which would compliment their preferred play style somehow but not necessarily their power in combat if that makes sense? Whereas a fully combat focused character would be more well rounded in combat specifically but not more powerful?

But there has to be enough good choices in the combat tree so there isn't necessarily 1 cookie cutter meta for all, that you never have enough points to get all the skills you would like to have so you could never have an advantage in all circumstances, you can't do everything by a long shot, much more so even than we saw in MO maybe.

So are we really just looking for a situation where we get to enjoy the quality of life that comes with a split skill pool but somehow retain the hierarchy where a combat character who also crafts is good enough at crafting to be useful to the economy/clan/self, but a crafting character is still better at it somehow while maintaining enough competence in combat that they can be on a level enough playing field in a fight that skill still wins out somehow? I would think that would make the most people happy, but how do you do that?

 

[Neftan]

I guess I'll have to repost this here now.

Hello, old friends and frenemies.

I'm bored right now so I thought I might make my opinion known and see what others think.

I personally really dislike the decision to have separate pools.
What it does is it will always disadvantage someone who has no interest in combat and kind of force them to pick up some whether they want to or not to get the most out of their character. A fully combat focused character can basically put as many points into trade on top of their combat as a fully trade focused character. I assume there will be some things in their design to limit specialization (at least I would hope so), but I don't see any way they could negate that big disadvantage they are giving the full trade play style or really any play style that doesn't want to invest all that much into combat.
MO already had that problem where the whole world was mostly a PvP world, with relatively little to do for most other people with some exceptions, this would even make that worse. Now you can disregard other play styles even more because everyone can be part of the combat!
You can argue: Well now trade characters can do combat too. But it's a fact that a lot of them don't care or want that to begin with or some just want to specialize in one thing. Or even those that for various reasons just can never be good at it. Good design should make room for most play styles, not turn everyone into a hybrid. This is basically the opposite of a good solution to the problem of making different play styles viable.
If anything I would have much preferred a system with synergies like if you are a miner you get some bonus to fighting with pickaxes because you know them well or if you are a good sword fighter you know some stuff about the weapons and get some bonus to crafting it, even if not mastery.

On top of that it seems completely arbitrary and like all it's there for is for the people that don't want to focus on one or the other to not complain about the one character limitation. I say all this as someone who does enjoy combat and doesn't really do much focused crafting outside of feature exploration. And I don't like the one character limit either because I do enjoy playing different play styles, that includes completely different builds or races. I'd still want a Blainn and a Kallard and not have to settle for one for everything. I do value some roleplay in my "roleplaying" games, not to mention the factual changes these things have on gameplay.

Then comes the question of what to define as combat and what as trade. Is taming combat or is it trade? What is breeding?
Is riding or swimming related stuff going to be combat or trade? So will it cost trade or combat focused people more?
It's just not something you can separate easily.

I'm personally very much into in-depth specialization with choices that make a difference and have both advantages and disadvantages. And this basically goes against all that, no matter if they add some specialization on top of that.

-

In response to what some people have said in the previous thread:

It's not more options. It's not an option when it's not optional and has no consequence to it. It's just more stuff with less consequences.

If they flat out gave you more skill points and you'd have to choose wisely what to spend them on that would be an option, this is not. And you could still do the same thing if you wanted to, just with actually having to lose out on some other things.

I'd much rather have two characters that I can play with different races, setups, play styles where I can fully decide and have advantages and disadvantages for my decisions than have one character that can somehow be the best at whatever combat skills he wants to do and the best at whatever trade skills he wants to do. All it does is hurt people that want to specialize and invest in one field.

Only having one account doesn't mean much. People that want to can still just make multiple Steam accounts and then have even more advantages.

-

Just my too many cents, so what about you?

Maybe this should be put to Feedback/ Suggestions but I see it as a general discussion for now.

For taming specifically, it wouldnt be hard to fix. Something like this, more finely tuned:

• Domestication - Profession, Secondary
• -
  • Taming - Profession, Primary
  • -
  • Creature Control - Profession, Primary
    • Nerf CC so it only offers 40 Pet Points.
    • -
  • Animal Care - Profession, Primary
  • -
  • Herding - Profession, Primary
    • Buff Herding for animals with 20 or less pet points to allow larger groupings of weak animals like goats, etc. Not intended for abuse of battle pets.
    • -
  • Beast Influence - Profession, Primary
  • -
• Advanced Domestication - Requires Creature Control 100, Combat, Primary
• -
  • Advanced Creature Control - Combat, Primary
    • ADV CC now controls Pet Points 41 to 100.
    • -
  • Beast Mastery - Combat, Primary
  • -

Lores would be profession.

 

[Amadman]

Here are some of my mixed thoughts on the subject.

I may not understand what you are saying about things no longer being options. But there are still options of what skills a player wants to have on their single character. If someone chooses to be a skilled butcher then they have to give up the option off being a highly skilled in in of the other crafting skills. So they will still depend on others.

Also we do not know how big the pools will be. The amount of points available could still lead to players having to make choices within the professions as well.

With the current shared pools the effect on all skills must be considered when thinking about adding to available points. Being separate pools however will allow them to balance them separately.

As for combat on a crafter. I really dont think crafters having combat skills is going to make them good pvpers. It takes player skill to be good at combat in MO. So those that actually do it often will always be better. But crafters will be less of a guaranteed easy kill if they are not so gimped. So players will have to be more cautions when picking targets.

Having combat skills will also open up more pve type activities for crafting characters. In the current combined pool system many crafting characters can do little more than their profession. We could get around this some with multiple characters on an account but this will not make very engrossing game play with a single character.

Sure it will be an option to make another account. But, in the end the game is now going to be designed around one character. So they have to make a single character worth playing on its own.

 

[Ibarruri]

Perhaps combat skills and crafting-trading skills etc ... should be separated. That each player could choose a type of trade and combat style. Archer-engineer-
Swordsman-farmer. Lancer on horseback-artisan.

Personally, I'm not much interested in combat skills. I will focus on crafting skills.

 

[Rhias]

I think increasing the overall skill cap without separation would lead to less specialization for combat characters (because everyone could basically max all skills).
Separation is basically the only logical thing if you want to stick to the 1 char per account thing and if you want to enable it that players can do both, crafting and fighting on one account.

 

[Speznat]

One char now will have the equivalent skills of 4 chars of old MO1.

so weres the problem?
better have more option and opportunity than not, i dont get your point OP.
Overspeicalisation killed the game in the first place, or do you really think that a wepaon smith is unable to swing a blade effective to kill someone. COME on get real. every restriction thats it against common sense feel like a punishment witohtu reason for players. so SV needs to stop. ANd thats why they should not do the same immerisve break like in MO1.

how they planned it this time is far FAR more advanced.

 

[Speznat]

Why:
Unesesary Overspecialisation killed MO1.
It kills opportunities and in the end it kills Motivation. being in a spot or whatever and feeling limited and punished.

So for Example i always wanted to be an ALchemist, but second acc no. so I just experiemented mit free to play and stuff.
But i never got to the content of alchemy, you ask why.

because i had:
Speznat to Actually play the game.
Speznut TO make Weapons for Speznat //have no other reason to exists
Speznute TO make armor for Speznat sometimes butcher but not full skillpoints missing //have no other reason to exists
TwoHands Tamer for getting animals for Speznat and level them //have no other reason to exists

10Million Hours lost because loggin in with other char makign weapon logging other char and so on. Just fucking why? the only existance of these shit chars is to support the main they have no other reason.

thats just horrible game design. absolutly horrible game design.

now tell me why the actually fuck shouldn't i be able to defend myself if i making weapons? the guy who makes weapons should have knowledge about how to wield a weapon god damn fuck.

SO agian to topic, no place for the Alchemist, so i never discovered that content that i wanted to same with (mounted archer PVE only land sarducca)
so what i did instead was, logging of and playing wakfu because atleast thier i have the option to discover content i like iwthout bein restrictet to 4 chars. and playing tarkov also. but the limit in MO1 is to hard.

just an example.

1 Char MO2 = 4 Chars MO1, maybe some skills are not primary than in MO2 hopefully. like everybody can swim Star vault to WTF, why is this a primary.

MO2 No fuckign relog waste of hours and hours of your live. no veredari tranfer bullshit needed. and More opportunity to do stuff. if you out in the field than you are actually also usefull maybe in architect or whatever withotu having to sacrifice your valuable combat skills.

 

[ThaBadMan]

Yes I agree that MO1 became too specialized and relogging and owning several accounts was faults in the game design.

 

[barcode]

because i had:
Speznat to Actually play the game.
Speznut TO make Weapons for Speznat //have no other reason to exists
Speznute TO make armor for Speznat sometimes butcher but not full skillpoints missing //have no other reason to exists
TwoHands Tamer for getting animals for Speznat and level them //have no other reason to exists

10Million Hours lost because loggin in with other char makign weapon logging other char and so on. Just fucking why? the only existance of these shit chars is to support the main they have no other reason.

all these extra crafting toons could have been elimated with a proper economy rather than the horrible trade broker.

and to the OP, i dont understand the dislike of separate skill point pools. If SV is really going with one toon per account this time, theres almost noone who would pick a dedicated crafter for their sole toon. why would you feel required to learn combat skills if you really are set on making a dedicated crafting toon? I assume many of the combat focused characters will skip picking up trade skills as its not something that terribly interests them, and I doubt they will feel they've missed out becuase of it.

-barcode

 

[KermyWormy]

all these extra crafting toons could have been elimated with a proper economy rather than the horrible trade broker.

and to the OP, i dont understand the dislike of separate skill point pools. If SV is really going with one toon per account this time, theres almost noone who would pick a dedicated crafter for their sole toon. why would you feel required to learn combat skills if you really are set on making a dedicated crafting toon? I assume many of the combat focused characters will skip picking up trade skills as its not something that terribly interests them, and I doubt they will feel they've missed out becuase of it.

-barcode

I think the combination of now having only 1 character per account plus the split skill pool will guarantee combat focused people will pick up a trade skill because it will be the most optimal way for them to play. It won't be the first thing they max out in their build, but they will do it if only because it will allow them to provide themselves some ability to regear themselves in an environment where most people will be financially prohibited from being self-sufficient . If you sub an extra account in MO2 you can't just make it a crafting account and be set with all crafts, you'd only gain 1 additional craft per account, so only edge cases will sub enough accounts to actually be self sufficient.

I said before on this topic that one aspect I don't really like about this change is that it kind of devalues the crafting focused player in that everyone else can do what they do just as well because there is no downside to picking up a craft on your fighter, it will be the optimal way for anyone to play because everyone will have the skill points to allocate to it. But then the flipside of that of course is that now you don't have to basically be a free kill if you're out and about doing crafting things since you can have a whole skill tree investment in combat stuff as well, and you can run, jump, and swim like a normal person, so that's good I think.

Maybe for me where it all feels kind of meh is that we think there's some forward looking solution that is unique and meaningful, but the answer is actually going back to what they do in all other MMOs.

But all things considered I think the split pool is much more welcoming to people who are going to be new to MO2, and with having far fewer alts running about it will also help keep the economy functional even when the population fluctuates to the extremes ( I think ).

 

[barcode]

I think the combination of now having only 1 character per account plus the split skill pool will guarantee combat focused people will pick up a trade skill because it will be the most optimal way for them to play.

if there is a functional broker system, i'd expect most combat toons to be able to farm out some materials/carcass/other pve mats, sell it at the broker, and then buy the gear they want, also from the broker. SV's idea of a broker was pretty godawful, and will need a total revamp for this kind of thing to be possible. since most new players would have their main interest in the combat side of the game, it makes sense for this to be possible, hopefully SV is up to the task

-barcode

 

[Amadman]

if there is a functional broker system, i'd expect most combat toons to be able to farm out some materials/carcass/other pve mats, sell it at the broker, and then buy the gear they want, also from the broker. SV's idea of a broker was pretty godawful, and will need a total revamp for this kind of thing to be possible. since most new players would have their main interest in the combat side of the game, it makes sense for this to be possible, hopefully SV is up to the task

-barcode

Agreed. Having only local trade and everything being crafted by players is going to make this a pretty big challenge.

Having a huge population would help for sure. But I dont think SV should really bank on having that.

I love the idea of localized trade and hope to be able to purchase from one place and sell in another for a profit.

Nothing worse than empty brokers though. Maybe they can dynamically add some generic items to long empty categories or something? Like an npc/bot that only places items in a non competitive matter. So higher selling prices and only in empty categories that have not been active recently.

Or maybe they could just do something on daily reset that fills some of the gaps in some way.

 

[Pherion]

The downside I see is only a hit towards roleplayers. I believe this might be less immersive but better for the dynamic of the game. Honestly my crafters wherent characters but just tools. Logged off next to a table untill I needed it. I want to be able to pvp with the best and also craft gear that I can actually use without having to log of and on. Sure its more imersive but not fun, and I think where MO1 faild was too much immersion vs fun.

 

[CHUBBS90]

"What it does is it will always disadvantage someone who has no interest in combat and kind of force them to pick up some whether they want to or not to get the most out of their character. "

No. How does it disadvantage the trader? All I see you writing is that YOU want an advantage for not taking combat skills. With spilt pools there is no disadvantage in trade, going full combat and full crafter is just as effective as going full crafter, in terms of crafting. Take as little or as much combat skills as you like.

It's a fucking great decision, as others mentioned above, no 1main+3 characters to sustain the main, logging in/out all the time, managing banks, mail etc etc. It wasn't fun.

Running around on a full slag hauler to mine with no combat skills, only to get ganked because you can't run, ride, swim, fight, or wear armor was shit.

Running around on a full combat character, only to run past nice resources, unable to fish or lockpick or mine etc, also sucked dick.

Gimping youself into a hybrid crafter/combatant, also sucked. I made a F2P char so I could kinda do both combat and gathering/skinning etc. And found myself playing this more because I could actually explore the content of the game, but it was shit always being under proficient.

Having to make multiple crafters to armor and weaponise my main was also crap. They had no purpose other than "effectively" giving my main the missing skill points to craft/self sustain.

I honestly wouldn't complain if MO2 followed in runescape/Albion online footsteps and just removed the skill point cap (for crafting). Not sure how that fits in with role play, but logically, given enough time you CAN master every craft.

Alas, I understand the want/need for some specialisation. I think the split pool is the best way to keep 99% of players happy, I think you are the 1% saddist, who enjoys getting ganked while defenseless.

I hope the skillpool is big enough to fully support a lifestyle that can supply your combat needs plus some. 4 chars worth of SP would probably be about right.

And I really hope they make the smart decision of making all BASIC things secondary/free, that is:
Swimming
Running
Resting
Passive regen
Anatomy
Mining
Chopping
Fishing
(for the love of god let us fish for free with no investment required)

And whatever else I missed, it's been a while since I played. (I know some of these already are free).

Tldr; OP is suggesting an advantage to those who don't want combat skills. Split pool will not disadvantage either players focusing on pure combat, pure craft or hybrid. Split pool gives more freedom and quality of life, something much needed.

 

[Illuminati]

How about you have a split decision to make. I'm going to use arbitrary numbers! How about having a combat/non-combat option. You would have 2 pools of skill points, but they would be incongruent. Say 1000 / 500 skill points. If you choose non-combat, then it would be 1000 non combat skill points and 500 combat skill points. If you choose combat, it would be 1000 combat skill points and 500 non combat skill points.

 

[Necromantic]

That would make the whole setup even less dynamic and would just be one more reason for people having to delete and remake their characters in the future. They are not non-combat and combat, it's not that black and white. Also there are different combinations of both needed depending on what kind of character you are playing. Some skills in the professions tree work hand in hand with some in the actions tree.

 

[Jackdstripper]

I personally like it. Absolutely hated being forced to use a completely defenceless character to mine/craft. Made absolutely no sense to me. Couldn’t even have basic things like riding or bandaging.

then there was the whole Boulder holders mechanic which was cancer.
People logging “farming chars” in the dungeons and logging on just to kill bosses.
or scout chars either logged off or just left standing on second monitor.
or characters left logged off inside palisades. The multitudes of shenanigans brought in by having multiple characters was too much IMO.

penalties like stat loss were laughable when you could have up to 8 pvp chars over 2 accounts. Not to mentions cheaters could hide behind a multitude of chars making it very hard knowing who is who.

yes I understand that some people will still have multiple accounts but that will be expensive. Majority wont.

I also accept that I won’t be able to enjoy multiple play styles anymore and will be stuck with one. bank space will be an issue unless they make it 4 times larger. Also certain rare professions, like engeneering, or scribe will be extremely rare and expensive. For this particular reason I would actually allow 2000 points for crafting primaries. Let each character have 2 professions. Either that or make all mat lores secondary.