Combat is boring round 2.

[Kaemik]

Also on the whole "I'm a vet, we know better, just listen to us" bit.

I put hundreds of hours into DUST 514 (The EVE FPS). I literally bought a PS3 just to play it, only ever used my PS3 just to play it, and loved the hell out of that game. And I was active on the forums as well as in-game. Probably in the top 10% in terms of hours invested into that game. On the forums 90% of every thread was everyone whining about whatever the "flavor of the month" tactic was. Shotguns, light-assault vehicles, knifing, heavy suits with machineguns, beam lasers etc.

One tactic never got whined about by the 80% of the forums who complained about all these things. Assault suits with assault rifles. I also noticed about 80% of the time I died it was to an assault suit with an assault rifle. And these people literally went down the list of everything that managed to become an effective counter to them bitching about it until it got nerfed.

If this was a forum for the Dust 514 sequel, and I passed myself off as someone who never played DUST 514 I promise you I'd be arguing against self-proclaimed vets who would tell me everything in the game needs to be balanced around medium suits with assault rifles and cry "no skill" and "nerf" on everything that isn't that. They'd be making all the same exact arguments you are.

I did play MO1, just not enough that I'm going to claim vet status. Said that like 3-5 times already I guess you're just too up your own ass to hear it? And I saw primarily Thursar/Khurite foot fighters in-game and on the forums when I did. So I don't trust "vets" who seem to only care about one build. And spend 99% of their time talking about one build. And pretend like that one build is the sole bastion of skill when there are higher skillcap builds like MAs out there.

You're the whitebread defenders of Mortal Online and it doesn't take someone with hundreds of hours into the game to see that. If you have your way MO2 will be a whitebread game with melees dominating everything and other builds only generously being allowed to exist by their whitebread masters.

Foot fighters are the most fundamentally important role for numerous reasons you'd know but you clearly didn't play or not long enough.

Huh. I thought necromancers and dominators were the most important role because they easily defeated everyone with no skill and you only played melee because of the fact you are such great sportsman. Pretty sure you spent like 3 pages trying to convince me of that fact in a completely unrelated thread.

Which is it? It WAS the most important role (Meaning if I rolled primarily foot fighters I'd beat comps that didn't including 90% Dom/Necro comps), or you WANTED it to be the most important role? See I don't need to play the game to know you're full of shit when your arguments contradict themselves from thread to thread. And whichever is true that doesn't mean it SHOULD be the most important role in MO2.

 

[Javelin]

We won't know actual specifics until every single primary role makes it into the game. That means, mages, hybrids, minion masters, mounted fighters, mounted archers, mounted mages, and mounted hybrids. Proper combat balance means bringing them all in, seeing how they all interact, and then adjusting from there.

But melees keep using "balance melee and then bring everything else in" as code for "make melee a do-everything role with no major weaknesses cause we rule, everyone else sucks, and the game deserves to be balanced around us." That's the attitude I consistently see by the melee elitists on these boards and that's what I'm arguing against.

This isn’t really accurate. Im arguing for melee to not feel like hot garbage not be the be all end all spec, there is a difference. Personally i think magic ruins the ability to balance because its like introducing machine guns to medieval warfare and then expecting to balance them. But i know thats a lost battle and magic will be in mortal regardless so whatever, its likely to end up overpowered no matter what they do to melee combat so you dont have much to worry about. Henrik loves magic and so it will always end up top tier.

Correct me if im wrong but it sounds like you want a rock paper scissors system where mages always beat armored melee. All that is going to happen is no one will play melee. Damage soaking is not a valid tactic in this game because people will just avoid the slow tanks and kill the mages and archers first. They become entirely pointless. Mobility and damage are always king in these types of games. Being able to outposition your enemy and get out of the fight to heal up is critical to any pvper and so they will play whatever spec can do that. We always worked out what we could wear to get the most armor while maintaining the most mobility relying more on our combat and positioning skill to makeup for lower armor rating. We still had mages and archers even in the old system because they were tactically useful when paired with melee support that was mobile enough to protect them.

I should have the option to sacrifice armor for fast mobility and fast swing speed. I do not see that in the current system but maybe im wrong. Coming from mordhau it feels like im slogging through mud covered in glue no matter what i wear or use.

If everyones running around in heavy armor with slow weapons then shits broken because theres no viable variety being exercised.

 

[Kaemik]

Correct me if im wrong but it sounds like you want a rock paper scissors system where mages always beat armored melee. All that is going to happen is no one will play melee. Damage soaking is not a valid tactic in this game because people will just avoid the slow tanks and kill the mages and archers first. They become entirely pointless. Mobility and damage are always king in these types of games. Being able to outposition your enemy and get out of the fight to heal up is critical to any pvper and so they will play whatever spec can do that. We always worked out what we could wear to get the most armor while maintaining the most mobility relying more on our combat and positioning skill to makeup for lower armor rating. We still had mages and archers even in the old system because they were tactically useful when paired with melee support that was mobile enough to protect them.

I think we established rock/paper/scissors is a gross oversimplification of what I want. If you are a melee with full heavy armor, sword and board, and the mage you face is on point with kiting they should destroy you fairly easily. So should a few other builds like mounted archers and heavy cavalry. If you splash 100 points into archery and whip out a bow that should entirely change the dynamic. If you have teammates that should change the dynamic. Facing your hard counter 1v1 should be pretty uncommon unless you run some super basic whitebread build, and damn near impossible in a group setting if your builds counter eachother's weaknesses. Facing soft counters should be more common in both solo and group play. Soft counter meaning they have a leg up on you but you can still potentially win with better play, while hard counter means you essentially can't win unless they pretty much just let you. MA vs. no range infantry is the best example of a hard counter they will definitely be in-game. There isn't shit a foot fighter with no bow could do in that matchup unless the MA is bad enough to let them close. Another good way to think about it is pike/bow footfighters should have essentially zero hard counters but a lot of soft counters as they are probably the most versatile build.

I do agree my biggest concern about heavy melee as it stands is in the current system it seems pretty easy to say "Oh you're a tank, cool I'm just going to step on past you, kill all your friends, and deal with you last."

If that ends up being the case I think the solution is figure out ways the heavy melee can say "Nope, you're not coming through me bud." Not scrapping the idea of tactical gameplay some of which like the aforementioned MA vs. FF with no bow is just guaranteed to be in-game. There is talk of special abilities. I would tie some to armor training and heavy armor training that help them prevent people from moving past them. Something like a shield charge with a slight-slow affect could be very useful in forcing enemy melee to turn and face you.

 

[Handsome Young Man]

Most important doesn't mean the most powerful. You continue to put words in my mouth expecting to sound smart when you're a literal propaganda bot for bogus ideas that will do nothing but drive us backwards.

Doesn't matter, the game ever does go the way you want it - it'll be dead on arrival and it'll probably get shit on like it did back in 2015 on steam release for the original reasons + new ones.

But I'll find people like Kae would care more about it not being successful then me. I have always expected the worse, and prepared for the worse due to the things that has happened previously.

Doesn't mean I won't praise what is good, I have a plenty. But one of the biggest weaknesses of this game is the lack of a clear and direct line of feedback from SV to the players and players to SV. We only get fed nuggets of info at their leisure and never know if what players want is what we're getting - and you guys complaining about player influence can honestly suck a fat one.

MO1 died hard because SV prioritized casualized experiences that were half baked and bug ridden over actual bug fixing and finishing previously implemented things.

This is why we dealt with OP mounteds for so long, dealt with automated fights because everyone had a pet, people no longer felt in danger in or for their assets cause guard spam and just PvE'ing was all you needed to do.. man how skillful. It's like people didn't really need to play the game anymore to have effect on others and the world.

Don't get me started on the garbage TC.

Just face it Kae, you're not as knowledgeable as a lot of other people on here and while you are free to express your opinion you yourself have again once stated that what you know about MO1 is limited which doesn't give you much room to say you know what and won't work.

I've experienced many different iterations of combat and played all of it extensively, the slower it gets the more casual it becomes and the less the game feels actually impactful and skillbased.

Like, the way you talk you sound like you want Wurm Online combat where if you just no life and have max skills and are a complete pve player skill shouldn't do much and you should come out on top for having higher skills.

Henrik has already confirmed a new WIP system that has been hinted at being faster soooooooo.. guess SV agrees.

 

[Kaemik]

Most important doesn't mean the most powerful. You continue to put words in my mouth...

Sorry you feel assuming you speak proper English and can string together a coherent thought is putting words in your mouth. I guess that was a rather large assumption to make about you. If being the most powerful / best build to run in high numbers / greatest impact on fights isn't the qualifier for being most important then what is? Given you accused me of lack of game knowledge for not knowing its the "most important" I assume you have something other than your own dogshit opinion to back that statement? Or is not knowing something is the "most important" because HYM thinks it should be, wants it to be, even though it clearly isn't a sign of lack of game knowledge?

Stop stating your useless arbitrary opinions as though they were facts if you don't want me to make assumptions about what you are trying to say.

But I'll find people like Kae would care more about it not being successful then me.

Is it that obvious? The fact that I'm enthusiastic about builds that aren't likely to be mine and want to see many builds be viable and have different utilities and you very obviously only give a shit about your own preferred playstyle? Yeah this line pretty much sums up the entire difference between us. If I don't want to see a game succeed I don't play it. You clearly only want to see yourself succeed and would gladly burn this game and it's community down around you to satisfy your own ego. If SVs chosen mechanics make you quit that's good. People like you only shit on things and ruin the game for other people anyway. If you even have an impact on this game at all that is.

 

[Handsome Young Man]

Sorry you feel assuming you speak proper English is putting words in your mouth. If being the most powerful or the best build to run in high numbers isn't the qualifier for being most important then what is? Given you accused me of lack of game knowledge for not knowing its the "most important" I assume you have something other than your own dogshit opinion to back that statement?



Is it that obvious? The fact that I'm enthusiastic about builds that aren't likely to be mine and want to see many builds be viable and have different utilities and you very obviously only give a shit about your own preferred playstyle? Yeah this line pretty much sums up the entire difference between us. If I don't want to see a game succeed I don't play it. You clearly only want to see yourself succeed and would gladly burn this game and it's community down around you to satisfy your own ego. If SVs chosen mechanics make you quit that's good. People like you only shit on things and ruin the game for other people anyway. If you even have an impact on this game at all that is.

I'll support said build, for example pet builds, when and if SV actually make them more engaging and skill based.

I do not agree with the idea of someone pressing 1-3 buttons + movement and call it 'great gameplay' when pets are involved.

This again goes to show you really haven't experienced this.

How does a shade sound? Quite literally shoots ranged AOE spells that hit for 60+ and was insanely fast.

Most Sard. Pets used had a spit that hit for 60+ through armor.

DK's could shoot and melee, were extremely tanky to the point you'd have to kill the guy using it because your entire group could focus it and you couldn't kill it in a fight. Oh not to mention it would use a literal 'block mechanic in-between attacks and would negate most of the already small damage it took.

My point is, why should I have to work harder in a fight but have nearly the same investment time wise and gold wise through gear, potions, etc. When someone can go through the process of getting all the spells, which BTW they never lose said spells or their spellbook upon death. Can mass produce pets once they have the mats farmed, which is easy. Then just schilling out reagent costs.

If you want to look from a economic point of things, for a foot fightet to be in his best to someone being at their best with a pet (cause guess what, you could have necromancy pets as a foot fighter because the point allocation allowed it and it was busted) the foot fighter usually had less survivability, more money down, and with more input by far then said pet user.

If the role was fundamentally changed to make players more active in combat and they actually had to CONTROL the pet rather than just tell it to attack someone then forget about it, then I'd be on board to fully support it.

 

[Kaemik]

Here is the thing. I've never said I want spellbooks, or pets, or any of that shit to work the way it did in MO1. I've actually said the opposite (Assuming it really all is as shallow as you make it out to be). I want deep, rewarding, rich tactical gameplay. You just assume I want it to be one click and dead because you don't respect anything but twitch skill. But when they're talking about special abilities and shit in MO2 I'm less concerned with how it USED to work and more concerned with how it's GOING to work.

If a tamer/dominator has like 10 commands and 5 different spells they need to make their pets really pop off I'll be HAPPY about that. If necromancers have to summon their pets mid-battle and I'm weak until I build up a critical mass of minions and have to use really good positioning and mana allocation / tailor my minion choice to the conditions of each battle to ever pop off as a necromancer that sounds GREAT. I don't want these roles to be simplistic and skillless in MO2. I just want that skill to not be primarily reflex driven. I mainly talk about how fun it will be to trash you with these no-skill builds because it's a solid meme that gets you going every time.

You're just salty about MO1 mechanics because Batman the dominator kicked your ass in MO1 in a way you didn't perceive to be skilled enough. I'm looking forward to what these mechanics can be in MO2. I may not have all the saltiness of 10k supposed hours of MO1 experience (Or whatever the fuck you're claiming) on a character I won't name but I do have 20+ years of competitive gaming experience spanning games like Darkfall, EVE, ArcheAge etc. so perhaps I have a thought or two worth adding.

(PS. Since I know it matters to you I've 1vXed and won in multiple aim based games. Darkfall being one of them.)

 

[Kaemik]

I'll add to that, I do believe in what I'll call "EVE Titan" balance. That some things should be really fucking powerful, wreck complete shit, and not necessarily require much skill. Provided those things are insanely expensive and can be destroyed. I mentioned this when I talked about how campadon (elephant) riders would be cool.

These kinds of things give guilds something to rally behind and help replace the endless grind you would find in a game like ArcheAge. You need reasons for your gatherers to gather, crafters to craft, and PVEers to PVE. And big destroyable battlefield assets are a great way to encourage all that in a way far less broken than a neverending grind for more character strength.

 

[Theodosius]

I'll support said build, for example pet builds, when and if SV actually make them more engaging and skill based.

I do not agree with the idea of someone pressing 1-3 buttons + movement and call it 'great gameplay' when pets are involved.

This again goes to show you really haven't experienced this.

How does a shade sound? Quite literally shoots ranged AOE spells that hit for 60+ and was insanely fast.

Most Sard. Pets used had a spit that hit for 60+ through armor.

DK's could shoot and melee, were extremely tanky to the point you'd have to kill the guy using it because your entire group could focus it and you couldn't kill it in a fight. Oh not to mention it would use a literal 'block mechanic in-between attacks and would negate most of the already small damage it took.

My point is, why should I have to work harder in a fight but have nearly the same investment time wise and gold wise through gear, potions, etc. When someone can go through the process of getting all the spells, which BTW they never lose said spells or their spellbook upon death. Can mass produce pets once they have the mats farmed, which is easy. Then just schilling out reagent costs.

If you want to look from a economic point of things, for a foot fightet to be in his best to someone being at their best with a pet (cause guess what, you could have necromancy pets as a foot fighter because the point allocation allowed it and it was busted) the foot fighter usually had less survivability, more money down, and with more input by far then said pet user.

If the role was fundamentally changed to make players more active in combat and they actually had to CONTROL the pet rather than just tell it to attack someone then forget about it, then I'd be on board to fully support it.

I wish people would stop acting like DKs and MO pets themselves were the sole issue. The reason they were “op” is because SV can’t code AI for shit.

The class and role necromancers/dominators/beast masters fulfill would be fine if pets worked as they should (ie not heatseeking and ignoring LOS).

 

[Bernfred]

the melee combat fits perfect to a 1 server MMO. when the combat is so bad why do good players beat the sh.. out of you guys?

 

[Handsome Young Man]

I wish people would stop acting like DKs and MO pets themselves were the sole issue. The reason they were “op” is because SV can’t code AI for shit.

The class and role necromancers/dominators/beast masters fulfill would be fine if pets worked as they should (ie not heatseeking and ignoring LOS).

When people say pets were unbalanced / broken, yeah this is typically included. I was giving examples of damage because typically a players health ranged anywhere from 160 to 200 with outliers higher / lower. 60+ damage was nearly a quarter if not more of someone's HP they couldn't counter.

The pathing was shit, the LoS was shit, the infinite stamina was shit, etc.

It was all bad.

 

[Javelin]

@handsome and @Kaemic can we take it down a notch? Id rather the thread not get locked again. Just a request as I prefer discussions were aimed at improving the state of the game. We all want mo2 to be successful regardless of which viewpoint we have so let’s try and keep that common goal in mind?

 

[Kaemik]

We all want mo2 to be successful regardless of which viewpoint we have so let’s try and keep that common goal in mind?

He pretty much stated that ISN'T a common goal between us. But if he can be civil and stop trolling everyone he interacts with in every thread then I can afford him similar respect.

 

[Handsome Young Man]

He pretty much stated that ISN'T a common goal between us. But if he can be civil and stop trolling everyone he interacts with in every thread then I can afford him similar respect.

Not a very good step when it's openly contradictory, as if to imply you were not at fault at any step of the way.

Here, I'll do it since you can't.

@handsome and @Kaemic can we take it down a notch? Id rather the thread not get locked again. Just a request as I prefer discussions were aimed at improving the state of the game. We all want mo2 to be successful regardless of which viewpoint we have so let’s try and keep that common goal in mind?

Yes, I'd be open to being civil and discussing actual critiques to the game that are based on first hand experiences, objective information, or what have you rather than arguing subjective matters that lead to bickering.

 

[[AF]Tyrone]

I'll add to that, I do believe in what I'll call "EVE Titan" balance

Titans ruined Eve online, and CCP regrets ever putting them in the game.

Titans/Supers ended small gang PvP in eve, and I think you'd be extremely hard pressed to ever find a group in eve that "likes supers".

There should never be an "i win" button. It should be hard for large groups to function properly in MO.

 

[Kaemik]

Titans ruined Eve online, and CCP regrets ever putting them in the game.

Titans/Supers ended small gang PvP in eve.

There should never be an "i win" button. It should be hard for large groups to function properly in MO.

That seems a bit overly dramatic. I had plenty of post-titan small group fights and I've never even seen one on scanners. I realize these days they're a lot more affordable than they used to be but are you really telling me if I go roaming in lowsec with a few of my buddies we'll have a titan or any other form of supercap dropped on us?

If so then that seems an issue with making it waaaaaay too affordable. Hopefully, we don't have any inflation problems that severe here. Something like a war elephant seems a bit less OP than a giant reusable nuke anyway though. Especially if you give it slow stam regen and walk speed so it's not really practical to take on ganking roams.

 

[Handsome Young Man]

 

[[AF]Tyrone]

That seems a bit overly dramatic. I had plenty of post-titan small group fights and I've never even seen one on scanners. I realize these days they're a lot more affordable than they used to be but are you really telling me if I go roaming in lowsec with a few of my buddies we'll have a titan or any other form of supercap dropped on us?

If so then that seems an issue with making it waaaaaay too affordable. Hopefully, we don't have any inflation problems that severe here.

Kaemik | Character | zkillboard.com

Kaemik: 3 ships destroyed and 11 ships lost.

zkillboard.com

Is this your z-kill? Yes, titans/supers are that oppressive, They've always been that oppressive. Roaming in lowsec with 2 friends isn't small scale pvp, but yea people will drop your frigates.

Combat in this game should be about players. It shouldn't be about AFK leadership logging in to use their I-win item. I'm sure SV learned from the way people mass quit during the pet fiasco's though.

 

[Kaemik]

Nah that's not actually me. I won't say that was as PVE account that I sold to some other dude years ago. But I won't say it wasn't. My main PvP account mainly is a lot of small gang combat in destros. I was flying with New Eden's Best before they joined Goons. You wouldn't find it very impressive I'm sure as I had like zero solo kills but before I started PvEing on that character it had a 99% ISK efficiency rating from all the high value crap we killed with destro roams.

I know better than to name it though as every time I do, people focus on the low K/D because of course I have a low K/D helping take down T3s and battleships in a 1-2 million isk fit. (Actually, he has a pretty decent K/D now that I look at him again. I guess it's purely the fact none of his kills are solo people get butthurt about.)

 

[Handsome Young Man]