Just stop. You literally make yourself look ignorant when you say stuff like this.
Combat is boring, a note to Henrik.
- Thread starter Javelin
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Just stop. You literally make yourself look ignorant when you say stuff like this.
i dont understand your logic, i explain.
the idea behind regional servers is a better ping for fights. so when you want a mordhau like game you need regional servers only. but they cant balance it for regional servers only because this would fck up the global server fights. you will NEVER get anything like mordhau/chiv in terms of reaction speed requirement, you can make it faster for sure but just a tiny bit. i dont see a good enough point for regional servers without ruining the core game.
There is ping normalization, why would it matter. It just means players NA vs EU would be swapping anywhere from 50 to and 80 ping difference and I think it's pretty crap that NA players are the ones still getting the shit end of the stick. Oriental / AU / RU players I don't really consider because it'd be impossible to balance it.
There is already desync with the combat being slower and with the ping normalization. Sure it might get better as time goes on but I have my doubts, but the fact you keep bringing up Mordhau and Chivalry and saying players want it to play exactly like those two titles is ignorant. Maybe some people are saying that but a majority of players that you're talking about are getting rid of this casual-entry slowed down snail paced combat. It's fundamentally shit, and adding moves in wont fix it.
They did this in MO1 constantly. They patch something or release something new, it's half baked and unfinished / not working, and instead of trying to fully fix it they abandon it or try to cover it up with the next half baked patch.
Where was our TC rework in MO1 that we were promised for so long that just got indefinitely delayed? Oh that's right they just didn't do it and continued to add more unfinished shit on top of what already didn't work.
I get you're not good at games that require mechanical skill, and I don't fault you for that. But stop supporting a system that allows anyone to put up a fight with little time investment when in-fact all it'll do is drive away any kind of skill-driven experiences / groups / players.
The servers at this point are a negligible point and it's the combat at fault.
Well while you're off dreading you ever interacted with me, stop throwing around these non-sensical terms about how MO2 is going to turn into Mordhau / Chivalry. The way you're thinking is narrow minded and honestly backwards to progressing towards something worth while.
We can draw comparisons between games, and draw inspiration for potential solutions and or fixes to problems we had in MO1 - that doesn't mean we want X to be Y or Y to be X. Sorry that you can't handle debating people with different opinions but it's clear that people are super stern on wanting the combat slow and keeping it slow even though looking in other places it's caused a super dumbing-down of combat and it welcomes in large casual crowds while this is meant to be a niche hardcore game.
What kind of argument is this. "The game was a reck most of the time, but in those off hours the game was great....". What developer in their right mind would think that's a recipe for success? If the server can't keep up with the client because the combat is "too fast", of course they need to find some way to fix that. If henrik wants MO2 to be a success he can't make the same mistakes twice when it comes to the shoddy combat in MO1. That's the definition of insanity. The argument is that MO1 should've probably never been as fast as it was because of all those reasons you listed, but after 10 years of fumbling about they've actually learned a few valuable lessons.
Just my input on this discussion:
I agree with the OP, combat should speed up a little to be closer to MO1. I think one of the biggest differences isn't necessarily just swing speed but run speed in general, which I believe is still getting some rebalancing. As far as redesigning combat around latency; has that been something Henrik or the devs said is going on? I would be surprised if the MO2 compute and ingress/egress are all colocated in a single data center and not spread out around the globe. I guess regardless of how MO2 is tackling latency issues for a global audience to address some of the MO1 issues (looking forward to not worrying about node lines..), the bottom line is MO2 should attract good PVP, good PVE, RP, and crafting. The way those different player bases interacted in MO1 is what made it a good game, and something that MO2 should be better at, instead of sacrificing one for the other.
I agree with the OP, combat should speed up a little to be closer to MO1. I think one of the biggest differences isn't necessarily just swing speed but run speed in general, which I believe is still getting some rebalancing. As far as redesigning combat around latency; has that been something Henrik or the devs said is going on? I would be surprised if the MO2 compute and ingress/egress are all colocated in a single data center and not spread out around the globe. I guess regardless of how MO2 is tackling latency issues for a global audience to address some of the MO1 issues (looking forward to not worrying about node lines..), the bottom line is MO2 should attract good PVP, good PVE, RP, and crafting. The way those different player bases interacted in MO1 is what made it a good game, and something that MO2 should be better at, instead of sacrificing one for the other.
I agree with Wesley Snipes, and not just because he was badass in Demolition Man (that's right, I said it). But.. I do think they slowed it down just a little too much.
If the game dont improve with speeding down combat then why do it ?
If the game is equally unstable with fast combat as with slow combat, why dumb down your game for no reason ?
Yes players say blocking and parries are better, well ofc it is they just slowed it down so that a old man can parry any incoming attack.
But they blame it on desync in combat, warping, hitting through blocks, etc.
But when they turn combat down and all those problems remain, why not revert it ?
The reason higher pings cant reliably block on reaction is due to ping not fast combat. From the time between slow combat and parry whore online started to we got ping normalization the same high pingers couldnt parry EUs. Once ping normalization hits they can.
I am no developer but how can I see where the problem is but developers cant ?
So again now with ping normalization and every EU now having 100+ ping, we can increase speeds all around bit by bit to find the sweetspot between offense only and defense only. But because of fanbois theres a slim chance we will see anything before persistent launch if on time.
We never got a chance with turn caps removed + ping normalization to try the combat out, we were thrusted into snail paced wind ups and lowered movement speeds.
If they sped combat up, etc and the issues (desync, etc) get worse, what will the argument be?
Having played combat before all the changes, and after I can say that the over all performance of combat has increased dramatically. It's not perfect, desync still happens, and hopefully they can fix that even more. I will say it went from barely playable in a lot of scenarios, to fair and playable.
The ping normalization was only half of the solution, slowing combat pace down was the other half. What they're trying to do is impractical with one server. Even dark fall online had regional servers and that was without having directional combat. The compromise is this, one regional server with slower combat and ping normalization or two regional servers with faster combat and less or no ping normalization. You can't have both from a technical stand point. Companies with more money than SV have tried. For anyone that means the EvE comparison, that's a terrible example because of the fact combat in the game is as slow as it gets, and it gets even slower with time dilation.
It's not like MO2 is skill less. The better player will usually win more times than not still.
I don't want to seem like I'm attacking you or anything ,I think we both want MO2 to be successful. Having some experience on other (although far smaller) projects has given me insight as to what kind of rabbit hole these types of games can dig for themselves when it comes to network infrastructure and trying to accommodate players from various regions. There is no catch all or silver bullet for what they're trying to do. If they want to have the one regional server located in EU, and still want to encourage NA and other regions to purchase their product they need to bend the knee to them some how. That usually means making compromises.
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Slow boring combat will mean this game ends up with a smaller population faster than MO 1 did. You do NOT design your combat experience around dealing with lag. You FIX the lag by adapting your world and the rest of your game to fit within those technical constraints. Sacrificing your combat experience as a solution to your technical problems is just ridiculous and I would argue that that is NOT what the devs think they are doing. I don't buy that combat was designed slow because "internet".
If that somehow is the case at some point you need to make a call and say "hey guys a seamless 1 region world for the entire world maybe isn't the best idea considering we're a small indie studio and don't have the money to research industry changing solutions that no one else currently has an answer for. Maybe we should think about breaking our world into two regional servers so that we don't have to sacrifice quality gameplay as a bandaid solution for our technical limitations".
The competitive gaming demographic is enormous (just look at the consistently top streamed games) and SV would have to be blind to not be looking to try and capture people from high stakes competitive games. They advertise this game as the most hardcore mmo, well your hardcore mmo is boring so either fix it or advertise this game as an RP handholding mindcraft experience.
It really depends on your team and your financial limitations. You settle on an idea, and then you go by figuring what needs to be done to make it happen.
Your network solution is going to decide what the limitations of things like combat are going to be. That's all that happened here. They needed to dial back the combat in areas because the solution wasn't work. They don't have the money and time to figure out a better solution, so this is the compromise they made. They don't want regional servers for whatever reason, that's entirely not an option. It's a bad decision I agree, but it is what it is. Latency / Networking is a large factor in a lot of decisions in game development. You design your combat around what you can financially and technically accomplish. The fact they're using store bought assets should've been your red flag at to what to expect. This is a budget project aiming to accomplish things far outside the financial scope any sane person would expect.
Your argument isn't really with me, it's with henrik since this is his passion project, but it's just that. It's a passion project, and he doesn't want an NA / EU server regardless of how flawed that is considering the nature of the combat.
In comparison, LO is far more of a professional project. Custom art, etc. MO2 amounts to a garage project developed by 5 guys.
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there are so many ways without changing the "speed" to fix the combat. im 100% sure combat can be very addictive for everyone on a one server scale when you have enough tools to fill the time and i hope they are working hard on it.
i.e. you parry just the first second for 0 damage and after that time you take linear more damag until you absorb the full blocked damage
i.e. you parry just the first second for 0 damage and after that time you take linear more damag until you absorb the full blocked damage
So basically the defense being made is "well this isn't a "real" game it's just some guy making a thing".
Sure if that's your argument and we shouldn't expect a real game and your bar is set so low for this that you basically expect an instant flop that never sees a healthy long term population then so be it I guess.
If that's the attitude of this community then this game is already doomed because you all haven't been providing clear feedback and pointing out the glaring issues or you have and they haven't listened.
This is a strawman argument. Feedback has been provided, and the feedback was the desync was making it impractical for anyone outside of EU and perhaps east coast of NA to actually play and compete with EU counter parts. Feedback was also provided by many saying that they should consider having a NA server. What do you want me to tell you? Henrik is going to do what he's going to do. They only want the feedback they want, and some things he's not going to budge on. It was the same deal with MO1, the only difference being is they didn't know any better back then.
Which is why I’m bringing it up now in combat alpha while they can recognize that there is a huge issue and take steps to fix it before they launch and kill any chance at keeping enough of that initial player influx. A defeatest attitude or a well they aren’t open to feedback is b.s.
Combat being horrible and ping being horrible is not an opinion it’s a hard fact. Henrik can choose to accept that is the case and fix it or ignore it and lose money. Ultimately its his success on the line and the harsh feedback I’m pushing here is because I’d like to see this be as successful as possible.
If they speed up combat and the results are unacceptable to SV, then they could just... slow it down again? Its an alpha mate, this is the time to fine tune shit before they release the finished product. Neither you or anyone else knows for sure if the ping normalization could had been enough to fix attacks going through parries for high ping players, whats the big deal in fine tuning some numbers to find a good sweetspot?
I'm not against them adjusting numbers, I'm just trying to make sense of the argument. The combat is slow, but slow compared to what? What is "slow" ? the way characters move? The swing speed? All of the above? If they sped up any of those things, and the results weren't what SV wanted, and they tuned them back down, will we have the same arguments? If the devs came out and said the changes were made because that was the only solution that worked and provided normalized performance across enough regions, would that be good enough of an answer for most people here? I doubt it.
The devs seem to think adding more attack options will make combat more "skillful", they haven't even entertained any of the suggestions of speeding it up.
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