Balance STEEL!?

[Emdash]

I posted this offhandedly in another thread... but what about this! Steel armor OK! Lots of MA OK. Steel armor good V MA. NICE. Other armors are not bad, either.

What if we increased the dmg of steel weapons tho? It could get wonky with high dmg bonus chars, but I'd like steel to hit a harder so that it could be a lot better than jade. I'd like to see nice hits on steel armor fighter 2 fighter, like 30+ on a clean hit. Is that happening? I'm certainly not getting that even vs lesser armors. You should want STEEL. I feel like it was hitting a lot harder in 1, or am I trippin? Didn't they buff defense at some point tho in 1? Hmm.

It seems like making steel weps more OP might change the game a bit. I feel like steel weps kinda got thrown by the wayside in a lot of ways. Steel should be like ultimate nubslayer level and stand up well against good armor. It should go thru khurite hard. It should smash magi hard. It should be something you'd def wanna use in pvp for a lot more dmg. To me, it's just not on that level. MAYBE I'M TRIPPIN. Not saying I don't use steel shit, but there is really not enough separation between steel and a first tier extract of the most dogshit (in total value) ore.

IMO of course.

TRY IT?

 

[Reimar]

Hadnt been back long, but definitely owning steel over jadiete weapons at present isn't much of an upgrade besides a few points of dmg and alot of dura. Feels less powerful than MO1 steel weps to me.

 

[Tashka]

"buff footies"
"nerf medium armor"
"nerf mages"
Just what this game needs.

Diminishing returns is ok. It's not like steel is rare, any guild that is not straight from haven can afford to always have steel weapons, even if they PvP all day and suck at it. Hell some can afford wearing steel armor sets at all times.

 

[Emdash]

"buff footies"
"nerf medium armor"
"nerf mages"
Just what this game needs.

Diminishing returns is ok. It's not like steel is rare, any guild that is not straight from haven can afford to always have steel weapons, even if they PvP all day and suck at it. Hell some can afford wearing steel armor sets at all times.

"buff footies"
"nerf medium armor"
"nerf mages"
Just what this game needs.

Diminishing returns is ok. It's not like steel is rare, any guild that is not straight from haven can afford to always have steel weapons, even if they PvP all day and suck at it. Hell some can afford wearing steel armor sets at all times.

It's not OK at the level it is. There is steel, exactly, but it does seem weaker than it was in 1. Jade was p good in Mo1, too, but it wasn't like steel.

I don't want anything buffed, just the threshold dmg of steel. I think you are mis-interpreting how this would affect the game (in my mind,) but like many of my ideas/theories, it's probably DOA

And yea TBH serious guilds should be wearing steel all of the time, and that's why I think steel should be stronger as a wep. I don't see too many people in steel much in vids or doing much dmg, but I admit that's pretty much only from watching vids/my own exp.

If the game is balanced on steel, the diminish should be starting after that, to me.

 

[Tashka]

I think you are mis-interpreting how this would affect the game

You said it yourself

It should go thru khurite hard. It should smash magi hard.

Magic armor is trash as it is, and khurite armor is rarely used, and it's only getting used less as more people move to steel sets.

 

[Albanjo Dravae]

It's not OK at the level it is. There is steel, exactly, but it does seem weaker than it was in 1. Jade was p good in Mo1, too, but it wasn't like steel.

I don't want anything buffed, just the threshold dmg of steel. I think you are mis-interpreting how this would affect the game (in my mind,) but like many of my ideas/theories, it's probably DOA

And yea TBH serious guilds should be wearing steel all of the time, and that's why I think steel should be stronger as a wep. I don't see too many people in steel much in vids or doing much dmg, but I admit that's pretty much only from watching vids/my own exp.

If the game is balanced on steel, the diminish should be starting after that, to me.

MO1 mats balance for gear was total poop, this time is a little better because theres more variables. Do they require more balance for sure but balance is not making steel better. Narrowing the gap between mats is not bad, at all. Bad would be making steel way superior than any other lesser material. Just a terrible approach, why are you asking this? Is there any actual reasons besides just because?

I don't get it tho

 

[Emdash]

You said it yourself

I tried to, but I don't think you extracted what I said with any level of imagination. It doesn't nerf magi. It makes magi better. Corrupt = better, heal = better. We all wear khurite in jungle lool, that's funny as hell that it's Khurite armor, but in terms of the best shit tier mat med armor, it's gotta be khur. It starts weirding out when you make it too heavy, that's when incis and such come in.

MO1 mats balance for gear was total poop, this time is a little better because theres more variables. Do they require more balance for sure but balance is not making steel better. Narrowing the gap between mats is not bad, at all. Bad would be making steel way superior than any other lesser material. Just a terrible approach, why are you asking this? Is there any actual reasons besides just because?

I don't get it tho

The only problem is that there is no lesser material than steel. It's all dogshit. It's all stuff you can make or get pretty easy (cept yknow weird shit like maal and nyx, which tbh i don't mind. I loved nyx in mo1.) But flake and jade should be meh. I don't wanna nerf them because I feel this game is tanky as is. I mean I'm a veela with hornscale armor on, and I can go in on people for a sec before I have to dip back. I don't have that 'death is lurking' possibility. I'm a shit tier mat player, in general, but I feel like people should be rewarded for using steel. 1. So they can enjoy it! 2. So you can take it.

Because steel was supposed to be THE METAL for this game, and it's not really. Pre TC- you didn't see as much as post mines, either, but you could tear into mola with a steel sword. Remember all the balance changes they made? Pretty sure they made armor more effective. They added the stam thing too, obv. But over the years, the game has changed, and MO2 is completely different. I just feel like it should hit harder and be more desirable as a weapon mat. I think their steel balance for weps might be a tad bit off.

Maybe I'm wrong

 

[Tashka]

Corrupt = better, heal = better.

It's not "better", it's just people taking more damage from footies so they need to be healed more. Hardly a buff to mages. Mages would die faster to footies. I call that a nerf.

But hey people say that reflect changes was a buff to mages 'cuz it made reflect stronger.

 

[Albanjo Dravae]

I tried to, but I don't think you extracted what I said with any level of imagination. It doesn't nerf magi. It makes magi better. Corrupt = better, heal = better. We all wear khurite in jungle lool, that's funny as hell that it's Khurite armor, but in terms of the best shit tier mat med armor, it's gotta be khur. It starts weirding out when you make it too heavy, that's when incis and such come in.



The only problem is that there is no lesser material than steel. It's all dogshit. It's all stuff you can make or get pretty easy (cept yknow weird shit like maal and nyx, which tbh i don't mind. I loved nyx in mo1.) But flake and jade should be meh. I don't wanna nerf them because I feel this game is tanky as is. I mean I'm a veela with hornscale armor on, and I can go in on people for a sec before I have to dip back. I don't have that 'death is lurking' possibility. I'm a shit tier mat player, in general, but I feel like people should be rewarded for using steel. 1. So they can enjoy it! 2. So you can take it.

Because steel was supposed to be THE METAL for this game, and it's not really. Pre TC- you didn't see as much as post mines, either, but you could tear into mola with a steel sword. Remember all the balance changes they made? Pretty sure they made armor more effective. They added the stam thing too, obv. But over the years, the game has changed, and MO2 is completely different. I just feel like it should hit harder and be more desirable as a weapon mat. I think their steel balance for weps might be a tad bit off.

Maybe I'm wrong

Pre TC people had multi f2p accounts mining, i had friends with mining account switching scripts on static locations.
And steel wasn't hard to make at all, it was broken when TC mines came out thats how some people got super filthy ritch, idk in herj we could produce like 10 stacks of steel a day with not much effort except extraction scripts inside the keep.

I don't think steel is that hard to get right now, and the effort compared to flake or jad farming shouldn't necesary mean steel needs to be way superior than any other lesser material. I think the damage gap is not that bad and i don't think steel should be more rewarding. Theres no reason whatsoever to do it. Now for sure theres balance required for weapons but thats hardly the problem.

I'm completly in favor of flake and jad to be where they are. Flake had a much lesser role in MO1 and that was retarded. I think it's wonderfull other mats are close to steel but it's not like they compete, those who want and can afford meta builds will do it, and the ones who can't won't. I don't see why it should get changed.

 

[Kaquenqos]

IMO, what business does any stone/bone have being better than metal? Gameplay? No, metal is harder to get & requires skill investment. Realism? No, sharpened metal holds a sharper edge than any stone or bone.

megachad-neckbeard-metals>Steel>Bron>Messing>pig-iron=Cuprum>bleck>Jadeite>Flake>Incisium


This would more appropriately reward time/skill investment, and unlike nerfing jade & buffing steel alone, you wouldn't be creating literally 1 single meaningful direction for metalworking.

I do agree jadeite, a waste-product from crushing sab, being the next best thing before steel is dumb-- but it kind of has to be there because of how badly t2 saburra metals got shafted. It's really there as a stopgap because they decided to make bron useless... Obviously it would be better if they just didn't do that so metal working would be rewarded either way.


But, you say, 'Kaquenqos, baby, calm down... Bron is SOOO good for blunt weapons!"-- to which I respond, "so what?" Steel is not bad for them either, but bron IS useless for swords- comparatively, steel hammers are definitely better than Bron swords. Steel being slightly better for slashing+more dura & lighter for sword, & bron being slightly better blunt, less dura & heavier for hammers would be a more fair trade off than "steel is ok for hammers, great for swords, bron is great for hammers, useless for swords".

Bron has worse slashing than incisium, and when you consider weight, you could argue it's worse than molarium which you can farm up very very easily... It's worse than the cuprum from which it's made.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say here is the bronze age is fucking cool, and unlike smelly iron based weapons they're virtually immune to corrosion.

Don't believe me? Check out this badass Assyrian sickle sword at the Met Museum from 1300~BC complete with, still legible, cuneiform inscription:

 

[Emdash]

^ I really like the idea of making Bronze good, even tho people will hate. Let me explain why it makes more sense, atm, than messing. Messing has always been better than bron, but they made it worse at slashing than it was in MO1 (I think?) I remember making messing swords for luls in MO. Now cuprum slashes nice but messing doesn't. ETC, but raising the value of bleck and making a combo metal right behind steel might make more sense. Can't broker it. I told ya before tho, Bron is a hell of a core mat for dura. It's only useless as a head.

Anyway, I def don't want anything nerfed (like I said not Jade, either,) but I want more productive stuff to be worth more. Making bron into a somewhat decent slashing mat would do that. Like if a sword specced out at 2.3 wt 13 25 28 or whatever bronze could be like... 2.7 15 (?) 20 25 or something. Rando numbers. Basically, it's true that a lot of stone is nice, too, but it's hard to see why metal shouldn't be better, even it's metal made out of duli byproducts (practically lol.) Duli is perpetually an age behind the rest of the world anyway!

As for nerf v buff mage, yea it's something that changes the whole game will be open to interpretation, but I feel that mages will die faster is not a notable point. Everyone would die faster. You'd not wanna get slapped as a mage. Would make good magery so much more valuable. Greater heals, imagine. I believe it would be a buff in magi role/ability to change an outcome of a fight. We disagree, oh well. If they are diving you to do more dmg to you, that also means they get shredded up by your middle line faster. Plus you can always hop around haha.

 

[Kaquenqos]

I told ya before tho, Bron is a hell of a core mat for dura. It's only useless as a head.

It's okay for that but only because it's useless otherwise & you can sometimes find it cheap because of this. Steel still gives WAAAY more dura than bron.

That's Steel, Bron, Messing, Incisium & Molarium respectively:


I would still pick incisium or molarium since it's incredibly easy to get compared to Bron, which you either have to make yourself (big time investment/waste of cuprum) or buy (relatively expensive compared to free molarium) vs. molarium that you can farm up a ton of in like 30 minutes. Plus, you end up with a heavier weapon for only like .2 or something blunt dmg.

I really like the idea of making Bronze good, even tho people will hate. Let me explain why it makes more sense, atm, than messing. Messing has always been better than bron, but they made it worse at slashing than it was in MO1 (I think?) I remember making messing swords for luls in MO. Now cuprum slashes nice but messing doesn't. ETC, but raising the value of bleck and making a combo metal right behind steel might make more sense.

Yes, plus it would create an interesting dynamic where if you want to go to high tier metal you go with messing and eventually make Tindremic Messing... Whereas if you wanna use it right away you turn your cuprum into Bron, which can't really be upgraded any further...

So messing wouldn't be useless, at least you can still use it for T Messing. You'd have to choose beforehand. It would create a fun dynamic & make bleck less useless.

 

[Jatix]

The only problem is that there is no lesser material than steel. It's all dogshit. It's all stuff you can make or get pretty easy (cept yknow weird shit like maal and nyx, which tbh i don't mind. I loved nyx in mo1.) But flake and jade should be meh. I don't wanna nerf them because I feel this game is tanky as is.

So I'm confused. You say there's no lesser material than steel but then list lesser materials that are worse than steel and then say they should be worse than steel. You can make them easier, and they are worse. Isnt that how its supposed to be? But honestly they are much better than you say. They arent 'dogshit'. 90% of my kills when I played were with an emalj axe. Now thats real dogshit. Flake is god tier at killing things in bad armor. It uses way less stam and is much faster than steel, so the true DPS isnt really that bad for what it is. Is also much harder to parry. Cuprum and messing are poor mans steel for blunt. Cuprum is poor mans steel for pierce. Jade is barely worse for swords.

So if you wanted to say steel isnt better enough than the others thats one thing. But saying the others are dogshit implies that they are worse enough than steel, that steel shouldnt need a buff because its already better.

Now bron, that needs a buff. It should be in between cuprum and steel as actual poor mans steel, while messing is better blunt shitty everything else steel (for weapons). Armor it could have some niche use to be alt messing, which is just shitty too heavy steel.

 

[Emdash]

It's okay for that but only because it's useless otherwise & you can sometimes find it cheap because of this. Steel still gives WAAAY more dura than bron.

That's Steel, Bron, Messing, Incisium & Molarium respectively:
View attachment 4736

I would still pick incisium or molarium since it's incredibly easy to get compared to Bron, which you either have to make yourself (big time investment/waste of cuprum) or buy (relatively expensive compared to free molarium) vs. molarium that you can farm up a ton of in like 30 minutes. Plus, you end up with a heavier weapon for only like .2 or something blunt dmg.



Yes, plus it would create an interesting dynamic where if you want to go to high tier metal you go with messing and eventually make Tindremic Messing... Whereas if you wanna use it right away you turn your cuprum into Bron, which can't really be upgraded any further...

So messing wouldn't be useless, at least you can still use it for T Messing. You'd have to choose beforehand. It would create a fun dynamic & make bleck less useless.

Yea I've calc'd and I wouldn't core w/ steel for anything unless it was above steel head. Like cronnn. The value really does pop, I think, because yknow 250 v 300 dura or w/e. That's almost diminishing returns, but yea... Bron def helps, but yea it makes your hgb 2.5. The reason I am intrigued by your suggestion (tho I still feel steel should be buffed a bit, just to separate it and jade,) is because it creates building blocks and more content, as you said. TO ME, that's how your build a game and that could be done in many other areas. But yea, I'll core emalji, I'll core incis... usually emalji for trash weps, but to me if I'm making a steel sword, of what I have now, I wanna core w/ bron. Unfort, it ain't cheap to core something like AN AXE with Bron, but it's cheaper than steel. Plus the bronze color is cool as a handle.

So I'm confused. You say there's no lesser material than steel

The only mat that fits is Jade and cup/messing if you are stronk. Yea you can scrape GY people with emalji, you can scrape them with incis, which flows like water in S (that's why I say you'd have way more fun coming down S,) flake is basically s tier as you said of all the trash, but it's gone up in value a lot, too. It's not easy to make flake lol, which is kinda funny, but it just happens thru processing. Now that they got porta crush, flake will happen at jungle camp, soon!

But by mats I mean metals. To me dura is not as big of a stat because I play balls 2 wall haha. I care about dura for PvE, but I don't expect to use more than 150~ dura for myself, prol will die or something. And tbh I don't die that often, but the only time I am using those weps is to fight pvp (in most cases,) so it's much higher risk. So, the whole jade lo dura (not on axes, really, you need a jade axe my dood. lool. Been running that shit since beta. Once you've really wielded a Jade axe, you realize that shit can bang vs even good armor, plus it swings well. HGB Jade is strong too.

Regardless, I gotta say one thing "I am confused" about is how people seem to 'unsuggest' a lot of things I say. Like, I don't understand why you and Albanjo are like WAT WHYY. It's cool that you guys are not saying I'm too much of a nub to make a suggestion, but in the end, it's still a NOPE suggestion, of which there are many, which is cool, but how cuzz you guys never do thoughtful intercourse (ahem!) I mean discourse.

I know it seems like I get on Mofo and just type shit. I DO! I am def a shit poster. But threads where I discuss the game are not like that, per se. Trust me, I've used mats. Not as much as MO1, cuz I am not up N, but yea mats... and the bron thing makes sooo much sense... 2 metals 1 buff ( 2 girls 1 cup? )

So that gives you an actual viable lesser than steel metal wep, but still there isn't enough separation between steel and Jade, and Jade being from sab, too, you'd actually still likely want to make out of Jade even if that buff went thru. I just want steel to hit a lil harder esp v high tier armors. People didn't like the 40s on bone sort of balance (I dono if I've ever been hit for 40 with a non heavy wep wearing incis gf, and that's -20 steel.) I bet I'd be hitting steel for like 20-25 with a sword. That's kind of low considering the power of a lesser heal, but that's just my opinion.

Appreciate people talkin' tho. Would be fun to see Bron get a buff. I do think metal working should be fixed, and I think all of the little areas that aren't fixed, could be fixed in similar ways, add more medium tier building blocks.

 

[Tashka]

Improving steel would mean improving cronite and oghmium to match, i really don't want footies to be buffed and mages and hybrids to be two/three shots. Give steel more weakspot maybe (even then, why buff alvarins?), but not raw damage.

 

[Emdash]

Improving steel would mean improving cronite and oghmium to match, i really don't want footies to be buffed and mages and hybrids to be two/three shots. Give steel more weakspot maybe, but not raw damage.

And TU yea. I think DMG is low. But yea 2/3 shots is too much. I dunno, what's the biggest hit you've taken w/ low armor? I've never worn true mage armor in this game cept out of haven FG FG kpad. But I've spent a good amount of time in the 7-10 range. Like I said, I don't wanna see people getting popped for 60s, but getting 50'd by a clean direct hit is not 'wrong' for a mage. You're basically hitting thru cloth in a lot of cases or lite scales. The only big problem is dmg bonus, like I said. If your dmg bonus is high, it's all good. I was thinking of steel more like a carry u sort of mat. Like you could have a 1.6 katana in MO1 and have 61 str but still hit people. They weren't amazing hits, but it was enough.

I'm def offended that it seems like they put more work into dura balance than they did into dmg balance.

The thing is w/ footie weps being more OP, you get to take them, they have more value. They might actually use them a lot more and when they do, they are in the sandbox/full loot economy for all to grab. That would be ideal. Like I said, Jatix is shit tier mat man, well so am I! SO THERE. lol. I prol don't have near as many kills as him, but I am operating in a wider range, too, cuz mounts.

Unrelatedly, I also feel wep weight matters a bit less in this game. 2.5 on a HGB would be augh in MO1, but it's not bad in 2. I've used 3-4 wt weps w/o stamming out.

Next we should do WOOD, fucking wood mane. Bow crafting zzz. They tried to make it so spw spw wasn't meta for weps, well what about bows??

 

[Kaquenqos]

Now bron, that needs a buff. It should be in between cuprum and steel as actual poor mans steel, while messing is better blunt shitty everything else steel (for weapons). Armor it could have some niche use to be alt messing, which is just shitty too heavy steel.

Bron gang


Bron above jadeite and below steel;
Cuprum has two interesting paths now-- messing for blunt or going to T.Messing
& Bron if you want to use it right away at an approximate 'around' steel tier
Bleck is now actually useful as a metal instead of just house padding

Only problem is to fit Bron between Jade & Steel, you'd need to either buff steel minorly or nerf jade minorly, because it's kind of a tight squeeze.

You could probably pull it off with only a buff/nerf of around 2-3 points, though.

 

[Jatix]

Regardless, I gotta say one thing "I am confused" about is how people seem to 'unsuggest' a lot of things I say. Like, I don't understand why you and Albanjo are like WAT WHYY. It's cool that you guys are not saying I'm too much of a nub to make a suggestion, but in the end, it's still a NOPE suggestion, of which there are many, which is cool, but how cuzz you guys never do thoughtful intercourse (ahem!) I mean discourse.

Idk I feel like I fairly thoughtfully stated why I think steel is totally fine where it is. 'Unsuggesting' is virtually the same as disagreeing. Which I do, steel is fine where it is.

Ya steel is harder to get and minimally better than the things below it. But thats how better materials work. Diminishing returns on effort. tung is barely better than steel. It even weighs more giving it worse stam, a con to the 'better' material. If we buffed steel, we'd have to also buff tung. And then ogh, same thing. TM isnt that good for how much effort it takes. But thats the point. Someone who wants to play a ton and has tons of gold will want to spend 10x as much for 5% better gear. But for everyone else, we want the worse gear to be decent. Making everything harder to get better just makes the game more gear based. Which isnt good.

Game has a lot of issues with balance and steel weps arent one of them.

 

[Emdash]

Idk I feel like I fairly thoughtfully stated why I think steel is totally fine where it is. 'Unsuggesting' is virtually the same as disagreeing. Which I do, steel is fine where it is.

Ya steel is harder to get and minimally better than the things below it. But thats how better materials work. Diminishing returns on effort. tung is barely better than steel. It even weighs more giving it worse stam, a con to the 'better' material. If we buffed steel, we'd have to also buff tung. And then ogh, same thing. TM isnt that good for how much effort it takes. But thats the point. Someone who wants to play a ton and has tons of gold will want to spend 10x as much for 5% better gear. But for everyone else, we want the worse gear to be decent. Making everything harder to get better just makes the game more gear based. Which isnt good.

Game has a lot of issues with balance and steel weps arent one of them.

I don't disagree w/ your disagreement. I don't understand it as phrased. The issue between Tung and Steel is almost the same as Jade and Steel, except two vastly diff classes of mats. Like said, there isn't even enough room to put a metal in between atm. 2-3 points, as stated, is A LOT. That really bears out over time. I'm not talking a large buff, cuz like I said it would scale pretty hard. If you start by literally pushing steel dmg +1 slash +1 pierce, you at least give some breathing room. Then you can have bronze in there as dura w/ near jade slash, and maybe give it more blunt.

So, again: Jade - Steel - TU is pretty much exactly the same gap (except tung gets the higher jump.) Jade is P good. Jade is the mat I'd choose if I could have matz n matz to troll forever atm. Also uses less per craft. Yea dura is an issue, but like you said the wt thing is quite nice. You're right, tho, balance issues abound.

 

[Domtomsen]

You are playing veela? You wont notice the dmg difference a lot. you should never do a lot of dmg as a veela.
Materials in MO follow the rules of diminishing returns. The higher you get the more you have to work for every single dmg stat. The same thing you call out between Jadeite and Steel can be sad about Pansar and steel. The line beween right balance and the weaker being useless is pretty thin and i think its good where it is.
And why should steel even do good dmg to steel armors? You got messing and hammers for this. Swords and spears are not made to fight against heavy armors.