Armor normalization

[ElPerro]

It's mostly about heavies because heavies use those armors, and btw heavies are literally every single footie except alvarin with no faw lmao. So every footie capable of wearing steel will wear heavy steel because it jsut makes sense, they have 30kg armor weight often now with acessible trinkets there is no excuse to wearing pre buff risar lets say compared to merc plate. There never wass coz pansar banded legs exist. We explained this mate. I wont repeat myself, pansar banded legs into heaviest armor will always be a default if there is heavier armor with harder stats because legs get hit like 5% of the time.

The problem is giving everyone 30kg armor weight so no wonder ppl just default to the highest weight armor. There is no nuance in a system like that, just wear the heaviest armor. Not to mention there isnt really any penalty for wearing heavy armor, we never got viable light or medium armor. Its heaviest or nothing.

If pansar banded legs become meta everyone will start targetting legs so thats no excuse.

 

[Jaygrae]

The problem is giving everyone 30kg armor weight so no wonder ppl just default to the highest weight armor. There is no nuance in a system like that, just wear the heaviest armor. Not to mention there isnt really any penalty for wearing heavy armor, we never got viable light or medium armor. Its heaviest or nothing.

If pansar banded legs become meta everyone will start targetting legs so thats no excuse.

100%.

So if the majority of PLAYERS know this- WTH is SV doing??? I'm being serious. Hendrik goes on an on about Ultima Online. Uh, last I checked UO had diversity in armor's pro's and con's. This game needs an enema.

 

[Iloros]

100%.

So if the majority of PLAYERS know this- WTH is SV doing??? I'm being serious. Hendrik goes on an on about Ultima Online. Uh, last I checked UO had diversity in armor's pro's and con's. This game needs an enema.

I agree Henrik does not understand variety is balance. Balance isnt arbitrary its measured by variety of builds weapons spells etc. used. This game L A C K S

 

[Iloros]

Elf with 11%/11% slash/blunt hit as hard as a Thur/Kall with their armor pen clade popped. Even harder than a Thur/Kall if the defender has better than steel. BALANCE. Oh, and now low ping players now take 80% reduced damage if you dare to attack them. Neat

Its so shit. Alvarins need nerfs so bad Im crazy to even play this game but Im waiting for my sub to run out.

 

[Emdash]

True asf, it's legit unplayable Alvarins most of all are broken and make other races miserable to play.

check point number 5. I dunno if you are just arguing cuz it's me, but I am gonna keep bitching about this because it's way worse than you think for the game.

I'm glad it suits you, but it's not the answer. As dude said, we need more armor types with meaningful differences. If everyone is wearing heavy steel, that's a game flaw. I watch people swinging giant weps, on like 25 stam, chugging pots and shit in videos.

I do understand what you explained, but I don't understand why you should fuck up the whole game because heavies got tired of looking at merc plate.

Heavy heavy armor is cool. I'm glad you like it. I like light armor. Everyone running around in 30kg armor is a bit ridiculous imo. And to not have a disadvantage to that other than looking like everyone else?? And what did they do? Make every armor like that. I don't think you understand how fucking stupid it is. I urge you to sit down and really think about it.

They are not really different. They are less different than the light armors, and the light armors offer much less protection / weight.

Again: the argument is basically ALL ARMOR BUT MERC PLATE IS TRASH. What is the solution? Make all other armors like merc plate. WP WP.

 

[Jaygrae]

This problem is a duality. Both of these issues CAN be fixed very easily and WITHOUT an alvarin nerf.

SV you want to keep alvarins your love child and not nerf em? Fine, then lets FIX the armor AND alvarin issue in one swipe.

1. Introduce penalties on weight/speed AND RACE.

For instance:

Humans- Can wear up to 12kg before speed/armor penalty.
Alvarin- Can wear up to 6kg before speed/armor penalty.
Thursar- Can wear up to 15kg before speed/armor penalty.
Oghmir- Can wear up to 18kg before speed/armor penalty.

This penalty would slowly introduce a speed penalty per 1% OVER the racial base. .5% per KG OVER BASE/RACIAL.

So a Human could effectively wear 12kg BEFORE any type of speed penalty is introduced. so a human wearing 25kg would be over his standard 12kg by 13. 13x.5=6.5% speed reduction.

A Alvarin running around in 25kg armor. 25-6=19. 19x.5=9.5% speed reduction. etc....for each race based on the formula above.

other races same formula, but this gives a vast assorment of possible builds/speeds. This would also effectively slow down the front line(s) to a more controlled siege environment, allowing skirmishers to stand out, as well as flankers etc.

This would effectively add diversity of builds, not only esthetics and diversity, but FIX this ridiculous "ELF RUNNING IN FULL PLATE STEEL, MAX BOOSTERS ON, MAX DAMAGE, GO GO GO.:

This also introduces a desire for armor weight reductoin necklaces in a VERY cool position, as well as FIXING some of the broken/worthless clades could easily be carried over. (Looking at you human pilfering clade)

This should also be applied to MOUNTED. Personally I feel the human pilfering clade should be changed to some form of "mounted speed increase or armor reduction while mounted."

KNIGHTS/HORSES should be the majority of mounted warfare and lore. Instead, we get once again, ZOOM ZOOM ZOOM DIRE WOLVES/TAUR/DOGS & ELVES!!!

These changes dont nerf the race, they just force a choice/decision between speed OR defense.

Cmon SV, think of SOMETHING to fix all this crazy 70%+ elf BS. The game was 10x more fun 2+ years ago watching full ogh's and thursars slamming into each other, with elf skirmishers/mages doing their thing. Now the game is just slap as much DEX/STEEL on as you can, get your max dmg ruber trinkets, hits the passive/active buttons=kill. reset.

Wrain

 

[Iloros]

check point number 5. I dunno if you are just arguing cuz it's me, but I am gonna keep bitching about this because it's way worse than you think for the game.

I'm glad it suits you, but it's not the answer. As dude said, we need more armor types with meaningful differences. If everyone is wearing heavy steel, that's a game flaw. I watch people swinging giant weps, on like 25 stam, chugging pots and shit in videos.

I do understand what you explained, but I don't understand why you should fuck up the whole game because heavies got tired of looking at merc plate.

Heavy heavy armor is cool. I'm glad you like it. I like light armor. Everyone running around in 30kg armor is a bit ridiculous imo. And to not have a disadvantage to that other than looking like everyone else?? And what did they do? Make every armor like that. I don't think you understand how fucking stupid it is. I urge you to sit down and really think about it.

They are not really different. They are less different than the light armors, and the light armors offer much less protection / weight.

Again: the argument is basically ALL ARMOR BUT MERC PLATE IS TRASH. What is the solution? Make all other armors like merc plate. WP WP.

They arent like mercp late exactly they are just same stat amount and similar weight. I mean again. What is your solution? Changing like 5 things so armors arent similar values? i just disagree theres way more shit to fix, game will die befor they fix anything if they take your approach. I think what they did was low effot balnace patch that is good.

 

[Iloros]

This problem is a duality. Both of these issues CAN be fixed very easily and WITHOUT an alvarin nerf.

SV you want to keep alvarins your love child and not nerf em? Fine, then lets FIX the armor AND alvarin issue in one swipe.

1. Introduce penalties on weight/speed AND RACE.

For instance:

Humans- Can wear up to 12kg before speed/armor penalty.
Alvarin- Can wear up to 6kg before speed/armor penalty.
Thursar- Can wear up to 15kg before speed/armor penalty.
Oghmir- Can wear up to 18kg before speed/armor penalty.

This penalty would slowly introduce a speed penalty per 1% OVER the racial base. .5% per KG OVER BASE/RACIAL.

So a Human could effectively wear 12kg BEFORE any type of speed penalty is introduced. so a human wearing 25kg would be over his standard 12kg by 13. 13x.5=6.5% speed reduction.

A Alvarin running around in 25kg armor. 25-6=19. 19x.5=9.5% speed reduction. etc....for each race based on the formula above.

other races same formula, but this gives a vast assorment of possible builds/speeds. This would also effectively slow down the front line(s) to a more controlled siege environment, allowing skirmishers to stand out, as well as flankers etc.

This would effectively add diversity of builds, not only esthetics and diversity, but FIX this ridiculous "ELF RUNNING IN FULL PLATE STEEL, MAX BOOSTERS ON, MAX DAMAGE, GO GO GO.:

This also introduces a desire for armor weight reductoin necklaces in a VERY cool position, as well as FIXING some of the broken/worthless clades could easily be carried over. (Looking at you human pilfering clade)

This should also be applied to MOUNTED. Personally I feel the human pilfering clade should be changed to some form of "mounted speed increase or armor reduction while mounted."

KNIGHTS/HORSES should be the majority of mounted warfare and lore. Instead, we get once again, ZOOM ZOOM ZOOM DIRE WOLVES/TAUR/DOGS & ELVES!!!

These changes dont nerf the race, they just force a choice/decision between speed OR defense.

Cmon SV, think of SOMETHING to fix all this crazy 70%+ elf BS. The game was 10x more fun 2+ years ago watching full ogh's and thursars slamming into each other, with elf skirmishers/mages doing their thing. Now the game is just slap as much DEX/STEEL on as you can, get your max dmg ruber trinkets, hits the passive/active buttons=kill. reset.

Wrain

I agree but how about we just nerf Alvarins and fix 90% of those issues with 5% of the effort. I agree with both of you it can be better but reality is these guys do 3 balance changes a year and you are asking for multiple reworks. it aint happening. Just cry about something realistic - alvarin nerf, I promise it alone will bring in massive variety.

 

[Iloros]

Like if this was riot games sure lets go hard with it, this is starvault, their durability patch after nerfing durability abilities clades, spells etc. was giving everyone flat 10 hp lmao, and you think those guys will rework armors and healing and speed and all that shit? they cant even code prepatch items out of the game/ Not meant to be offensive btw, its just reality.

 

[Emdash]

They arent like mercp late exactly they are just same stat amount and similar weight. I mean again. What is your solution?

What is the problem? You want more aesthetics? Sell people skins for their merc plate. If Merc plate is the default pvp armor spread, then I would think that would inspire some thought into how the whole system is working, creating a giant gap between banded and merc and making every heavy armor the same weight seems ridiculous to me.

I have said my piece. I dunno why SV isn't listening. Some people are cool with this change, but their defense of it does not match the critique of it that is coming from people who want the game to be interesting and flavorful.

You can't flatten speed curve imo because that makes the game stale. It'd be like making every mount the same speed. You can't flatten armor. You can't flatten ANYTHING without making the game stale as fuck. You are right that there are more important things to work on, and this change came in as a ninja... I wasn't on the discord at that point, and I didn't know about it until this thread. And even when I read it, I was like yea they aren't really gonna make every armor that similar, but they DID.

In the end, I pushed for a lot of shit to get changed. If you look at it, a lot of the shit I had problems with has been changed and now people are wanting to play again. However, they cannot get by without shooting themselves in the foot with changes like this.

It's just 'vision' and 'direction.' I remember when MO wasn't a game about simplification. Even if your build is ass against 19 of the most popular builds, but if it hard counters 1 and you can find a way to face that build more than you face all of the others, your build is viable, imo. You can't judge a whole sandbox game off of what people wear to outpost sieges. People are playing different games so normalization is stupid. I wish I could make it clearer. I wish you didn't think that I was talking random shit without knowing anything, but I am unable to prove to you that my point of view has merit, and, worse, seemingly unable to reason with anyone who might actually get this changed.

It's like the times they introduced other shit I really disliked, like when they came out with fkn orbs. It's like WHAT ARE YOU DOING SV?! It's a hard L, and I guess I gotta suck it up and move on, but once again, watch and see what happens.

The only way this game is going to thrive ever is flavor, having an interesting world. The neckbeards that go super hard on pvp without a thought of anything else, who are prol doing shit that is against the game ToS as well, come and go, and really just deplete the soul of the game.

You said the game will be dead... well, it doesn't matter if it is dead or not, if it's soul-less. So dudes can go in Risar Dungeon or to outpost sieges and see someone with Risar Soldier arms instead of full merc. Gfg.

 

[Iloros]

Like if this was riot games sure lets go hard with it, this is starvault, their durability patch after nerfing durability abilities clades, spells etc. was giving everyone flat 10 hp lmao, and you think those guys will rework armors and healing and speed and all that shit? they cant even code prepatch items out of the game/ Not meant to be offensive btw, its just reality.

becuase its too much reworking for a small benefit. Versus reworking hundreds of never used spells, never used weapon types, never used clades that would bring in more v ariety, and then when we do all that we can polish armors to perfection. But there is no need. Armors were 80% merc plate, now people use almost everything, theres some difference in stats, and risar is pretty different. I explained why heaviest armor will be worn unless you legit add new mecahnics that they just wont do.

Its the same argument as it is versus "well change x isntead of just nerfing alvarins" sure we can change some mechanic that benefits alvainrs the most or add CC or whataever to deal with alvarins, but whats way easier is just nerfing alvarins = more other races more variety.
And again you didnt even know armor stats,t he only 2 very similar armors are draco and merc plate, and if they just made draco 1 more peirce 1 less slash they wouldnt be anymore. You cant just add goofy armor like 70 pierce at steel with 55 slash, it wont get used other than a dude thats just using bows. THAT WORKS when we already have 10 diff metal armors, but if its just 4 mate, we cant just make 3 of them goofy af, and then 1 solid in all situations.

 

[Iloros]

What is the problem? You want more aesthetics? Sell people skins for their merc plate. If Merc plate is the default pvp armor spread, then I would think that would inspire some thought into how the whole system is working, creating a giant gap between banded and merc and making every heavy armor the same weight seems ridiculous to me.

I have said my piece. I dunno why SV isn't listening. Some people are cool with this change, but their defense of it does not match the critique of it that is coming from people who want the game to be interesting and flavorful.

You can't flatten speed curve imo because that makes the game stale. It'd be like making every mount the same speed. You can't flatten armor. You can't flatten ANYTHING without making the game stale as fuck. You are right that there are more important things to work on, and this change came in as a ninja... I wasn't on the discord at that point, and I didn't know about it until this thread. And even when I read it, I was like yea they aren't really gonna make every armor that similar, but they DID.

In the end, I pushed for a lot of shit to get changed. If you look at it, a lot of the shit I had problems with has been changed and now people are wanting to play again. However, they cannot get by without shooting themselves in the foot with changes like this.

It's just 'vision' and 'direction.' I remember when MO wasn't a game about simplification. Even if your build is ass against 19 of the most popular builds, but if it hard counters 1 and you can find a way to face that build more than you face all of the others, your build is viable, imo. You can't judge a whole sandbox game off of what people wear to outpost sieges. People are playing different games so normalization is stupid. I wish I could make it clearer. I wish you didn't think that I was talking random shit without knowing anything, but I am unable to prove to you that my point of view has merit, and, worse, seemingly unable to reason with anyone who might actually get this changed.

It's like the times they introduced other shit I really disliked, like when they came out with fkn orbs. It's like WHAT ARE YOU DOING SV?! It's a hard L, and I guess I gotta suck it up and move on, but once again, watch and see what happens.

The only way this game is going to thrive ever is flavor, having an interesting world. The neckbeards that go super hard on pvp without a thought of anything else, who are prol doing shit that is against the game ToS as well, come and go, and really just deplete the soul of the game.

You said the game will be dead... well, it doesn't matter if it is dead or not, if it's soul-less. So dudes can go in Risar Dungeon or to outpost sieges and see someone with Risar Soldier arms instead of full merc. Gfg.

and again its a good change and armor balance is much better than last patch where merc plate was the only option. So all I hear is it could have been better, it could have, but this is not RIot games, this is Starvault that has like 3 dudes and the game has too many other bigger issues to focus on, which I named, the biggest one being Alvarins, outnumbered fighting, and new player retention/murder hoboing in newbie areas.

 

[MortalEnjoyer42069]

Remove alvarin percentage modification passive speed clades and the game is demonstrably better.

 

[Iloros]

Remove alvarin percentage modification passive speed clades and the game is demonstrably better.

Im still waiting for them to do it, you go to discord and search "alvarin" and genuinely 20 differnet guys are talking about Alvarins being outliers to a point of absurdity, I cannot believe they arent doing shit about it its hotfix worthy and has been for months.

 

[Emdash]

and again its a good change and armor balance is much better than last patch where merc plate was the only option. So all I hear is it could have been better, it could have, but this is not RIot games, this is Starvault that has like 3 dudes and the game has too many other bigger issues to focus on, which I named, the biggest one being Alvarins, outnumbered fighting, and new player retention/murder hoboing in newbie areas.

it's not better, it's basically equal. Armor balance isn't better because there is all this shit you can't make anymore at certain weights.

They should balanced STEEL IRONFUR to be like if you put steel ironfur in, it give you a basic set regardless of what your plate type is. Steel is a basic mat and ironfur is a basic mat. Both are prevalent and accessible to all.

If that's what everyone is wearing. To change how the armors work + their weight is just aids. I wish I hadn't wasted all that time writing that other post, but w/e.

This change didn't need to happen now @ 3 guys. It proves it was just a shoddy rando fix because it makes no sense. But, whatever. We shall see how it all works out long term.

 

[Iloros]

it's not better, it's basically equal. Armor balance isn't better because there is all this shit you can't make anymore at certain weights.

They should balanced STEEL IRONFUR to be like if you put steel ironfur in, it give you a basic set regardless of what your plate type is. Steel is a basic mat and ironfur is a basic mat. Both are prevalent and accessible to all.

If that's what everyone is wearing. To change how the armors work + their weight is just aids. I wish I hadn't wasted all that time writing that other post, but w/e.

This change didn't need to happen now @ 3 guys. It proves it was just a shoddy rando fix because it makes no sense. But, whatever. We shall see how it all works out long term.

There is more variety and the stats are different therefore it is better.

 

[Iloros]

it's not better, it's basically equal. Armor balance isn't better because there is all this shit you can't make anymore at certain weights.

They should balanced STEEL IRONFUR to be like if you put steel ironfur in, it give you a basic set regardless of what your plate type is. Steel is a basic mat and ironfur is a basic mat. Both are prevalent and accessible to all.

If that's what everyone is wearing. To change how the armors work + their weight is just aids. I wish I hadn't wasted all that time writing that other post, but w/e.

This change didn't need to happen now @ 3 guys. It proves it was just a shoddy rando fix because it makes no sense. But, whatever. We shall see how it all works out long term.

And its not equal for tenth time.

 

[Emdash]

You can't say that they didn't remove what draco was from the game. I can go further on that, but draco was a unique, cool armor and they shit all over it. That's not the only issue, but it's a great example.

Azog was saying they should let people make pre patch still. They should add +2 to draco slash as steel, add like +4 to all risar, let people keep the normalized shit, too, while they work on the game.

This is OK if it's a step toward something, but it's not OK as an end game. It isn't equal but it basically is, especially on weight, which is a huge factor. the game is missing a lot on that level and it's a step in the wrong direction and further away from light viable armor.

 

[Iloros]

You can't say that they didn't remove what draco was from the game. I can go further on that, but draco was a unique, cool armor and they shit all over it. That's not the only issue, but it's a great example.

Azog was saying they should let people make pre patch still. They should add +2 to draco slash as steel, add like +4 to all risar, let people keep the normalized shit, too, while they work on the game.

This is OK if it's a step toward something, but it's not OK as an end game. It isn't equal but it basically is, especially on weight, which is a huge factor. the game is missing a lot on that level and it's a step in the wrong direction and further away from light viable armor.

I mean I legit dont see your point its a bit different than what it was sure it could have been like 51 67 64 instead of 51 66 65 but whatever. I am enjoying this patch Im rocking draco and tind knight coz it looks tuff as hell and is viable now. If they revert or nerf ill unironically unsub because this is one of the most clearly positive changes they have done and there is still complainers. Crazy. Theres 4 armors when theres 15 we can have bs like 51 69 60.

 

[Emdash]

I dunno what more I can say?

Cron Draco pre patch:

44.75 blunt (makess sense imo)
76.83 pierce (funny to be hit by outlaw bows for 0)
66.73 slash (pretty low for sure)

New Cron Draco:

46.10 blunt (does it make a huge difference, kinda I guess?)
74.34 pierce (big drop imo)
73.34 slash (which is higher than merc was btw ?? makes no sense.)

Plus they made it heavier, so the idea of using draco torso on a low armor wt character gets you less pierce and more weight, which is trash. Or if you wanted to wear like a TUNG draco chest, it'll be a lot harder now and not worth it.

They took an armor with a purpose and removed it. They didn't need to do that.

What is shocking me is that you are feeling this change is so amazing when you could have just worn merc and said fuck it and left the rest of the game alone haha.

In short:

The idea of rebalancing armor is SMART and NECESSARY.

Balancing armor by normalizing it in a patch most of us didn't even get to give input on or even know about is A BIT CRAZY at this point in the game when they are actually getting new players / players back.

I just unspecced a lot of AT points. I hope it gets changed, but I don't think they are gonna listen on this one. This is just as brainless as +10 health. It doesn't -really- matter, as one change, but if you just keep adding in shit like this... the game will suffer.

Again more options = different ways to build your armor set, to me at least. NOT different ways to appear while getting the same prots. But yea this is a dead horse. I am glad you spoke with me about it, and I am less triggered overall, but I am positive it's not a good long term change, and I hope they have more balance ideas beyond this.

just gonna eat the 2k cron I wasted on these sets haha. I already fed 5k to bad company, so fuk it. Maybe I'll make spears