Archery Aiming - Poll

[Valoran]

Soupy made a thread about this recently, but I thought it could use a public poll so Star Vault can see the distribution of how many people prefer the more immersive system of aiming with the arrow tip instead of the reticle with a charge circle.

I believe the aiming reticle is redundant, and less immersive, as we could use the information conveyed by the visible bow on screen to determine everything the reticle tells us, such as:

1. The the draw length of the bow can be used to determine power, knowing that maximum power has been reached when the arrow and string stops moving.

2. We could determine the flight path of the arrow if the arrow was centred and straight on screen, combined with knowledge of how powerful your particular bow is.


The reticle is not required to have a functional and intuitive aiming system, with a perfect example being Rust. Rust has no aiming reticle or UI whatsoever for it's archery, and yet thousands of 10-15 year-olds are able to use it perfectly.

I also believe we should be able to use the archery system with our UI off, which would be perfectly possible with a tip aiming system.


If you however do prefer the reticle system, please take the time to explain why below.

 

[Kaemik]

Neither or either. I don't care what the system is as long as it feels good. I want some kind of system that's intuitive and relatively easy to predict where my arrow will land once I learn how much curve I need to be compensating for. If they can pull that off with the tip then all we need is just the tip . If they can pull that off with a reticle but not a tip then I want a reticle. If they can pull that off with some other system use some other system.

But right now I don't think it's inherently obvious where an arrow is going to go when you draw the bow. Perhaps all they need is target ranges for us to practice at though, given the lack of arrow trails gives us no real feedback on how to adjust our aim from shot to shot. Real-life archers don't need some arrow trail either. And you don't generally put the tip precisely on target to hit where you want to hit. But that's because they've spent hours putting arrows into targets to learn where they need to aim for an arrow to go where they want it to.

 

[Valoran]

Neither or either. I don't care what the system is as long as it feels good. I want some kind of system that's intuitive and relatively easy to predict where my arrow will land once I learn how much curve I need to be compensating for. If they can pull that off with the tip then all we need is just the tip . If they can pull that off with a reticle but not a tip then I want a reticle. If they can pull that off with some other system use some other system.

But right now I don't think it's inherently obvious where an arrow is going to go when you draw the bow. Perhaps all they need is target ranges for us to practice at though, given the lack of arrow trails gives us no real feedback on how to adjust our aim from shot to shot. Real-life archers don't need some arrow trail either. And you don't generally put the tip precisely on target to hit where you want to hit. But that's because they've spent hours putting arrows into targets to learn where they need to aim for an arrow to go where they want it to.

I completely understand where you're coming from in that you just want a functional system whether that takes the form of a reticle or the tip, and that's entirely fair.

I assure you though it is possible to have a tip based system with accurate and predictable aiming, so if we can have an accurate system, why not go for the more immersive one?

 

[Ori]

I don't recall aiming with the tip of my arrow.

 

[Valoran]

I don't recall aiming with the tip of my arrow.

This is how the MO1 archery system worked. You aimed with the arrow tip and the tip would sway around on your screen at different speeds based on how fast you were moving.

 

[Ori]

This is how the MO1 archery system worked. You aimed with the arrow tip and the tip would sway around on your screen at different speeds based on how fast you were moving.

Yeah the animation was horrible in MO. They seem to struggle with perspective when it comes to modeling the archer animation for some reason.

Why on earth would you even want to block the area of interest with the arrow tip.

 

[Kaemik]

I completely understand where you're coming from in that you just want a functional system whether that takes the form of a reticle or the tip, and that's entirely fair.

I assure you though it is possible to have a tip based system with accurate and predictable aiming, so if we can have an accurate system, why not go for the more immersive one?

Yes. Tip-based is great so long as it's not sacrificing the quality of aiming that we could achieve with another system. The quality is my first and foremost concern whatever system we go with but tip does sound nice if they feel they can perfect it relatively easily with the resources they have now.

 

[Valoran]

Yes. Tip-based is great so long as it's not sacrificing the quality of aiming that we could achieve with another system. The quality is my first and foremost concern whatever system we go with but tip does sound nice if they feel they can perfect it relatively easily with the resources they have now.

I think it's less a question of what we want to suggest based on their resources, and more a poll on what the players actually want.

If you could have anything in the world for an archery aiming system, would it be tip based, or reticle based?

 

[Ori]

I think it's less a question of what we want to suggest based on their resources, and more a poll on what the players actually want.

If you could have anything in the world for an archery aiming system, would it be tip based, or reticle based?

Yeah, reticle because you don't aim with the tip of an arrow and there is no reason to in MO2 unless you enjoy blocking your target and repeating mistakes of the past.

It wasn't intuitive and even when you knew how it worked it still felt and looked off.

The center of the screen is the focal point for everything else, yet for archery we want it differently? I don't see any sense to this. The animation and line of the arrow shaft should always be pointing in a way that makes sense to where you are aiming, the head of the arrow should never be blocking and interfering with the area you are interested in aiming at. If you have to aim pretty high up to account for drop then it should still not be the arrow head in the way.

 

[Valoran]

Yeah, reticle because you don't aim with the tip of an arrow and there is no reason to in MO2 unless you enjoy blocking your target and repeating mistakes of the past.

It wasn't intuitive and even when you knew how it worked it still felt and looked off.

The center of the screen is the focal point for everything else, yet for archery we want it differently? I don't see any sense to this. The animation and line of the arrow shaft should always be pointing in a way that makes sense to where you are aiming, the head of the arrow should never be blocking and interfering with the area you are interested in aiming at. If you have to aim pretty high up to account for drop then it should still not be the arrow head in the way.

This is how real archery works, however. Shooting long distance with a longbow, you do in fact use the tip for reference. Lining up your target and then raising the bow in the air above the target is how to shoot in real life unless you're using a modern bow with sighting and zeroing mechanics.

Realism aside however, the main point of diversion in this argument is wanting an immersive system so we can use a bow without having to rely on a UI reticle. It's more a question of immersion than realism, even though the realistic argument favors the tip system anyway.


We can have the tip line up with the centre of the screen.

I also completely wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment of MO1. I found it completely intuitive, and loved every second of it.

 

[Ori]

This is how real archery works, however. Shooting long distance with a longbow, you do in fact use the tip for reference. Lining up your target and then raising the bow in the air above the target is how to shoot in real life unless you're using a modern bow with sighting and zeroing mechanics.

Realism aside however, the main point of diversion in this argument is wanting an immersive system so we can use a bow without having to rely on a UI reticle. It's more a question of immersion than realism, even though the realistic argument favors the tip system anyway.


We can have the tip line up with the centre of the screen.

I also completely wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment of MO1. I found it completely intuitive, and loved every second of it.

Using a tip for reference is not the same as using the tip as the in game crosshair (same for RL) so to speak. You can use a tip for reference without blocking the target area, but the shaft of the arrow must also make sense. What we currently have is the shaft shows the arrow flying off to the left of the screen but somehow actually goes in a different direction. MO1 had the same issue although to a lesser degree.

I notice you didn't take on the fact that the center point is used for everything else but for some reason different for archery?!

If you want to have immersion then ask to be able to turn the crosshair off. The animation and arrow shaft can and should be done in a way that aiming without a crosshair is perfectly fine and that is pretty much my biggest gripe, crosshair on or off it should be obvious where you are aiming.


Is it that you wish everyone else to have to suffer?

 

[Valoran]

Using a tip for reference is not the same as using the tip as the in game crosshair (same for RL) so to speak. You can use a tip for reference without blocking the target area, but the shaft of the arrow must also make sense. What we currently have is the shaft shows the arrow flying off to the left of the screen but somehow actually goes in a different direction. MO1 had the same issue although to a lesser degree.

I notice you didn't take on the fact that the center point is used for everything else but for some reason different for archery?!

If you want to have immersion then ask to be able to turn the crosshair off. The animation and arrow shaft can and should be done in a way that aiming without a crosshair is perfectly fine and that is pretty much my biggest gripe, crosshair on or off it should be obvious where you are aiming.


Is it that you wish everyone else to have to suffer?

I did address that, by stating that the arrow tip can be made to line up with the centre of the screen at full draw.

I am also making the assumption that they will fix the angle of the arrow so that it makes sense and follows a logical flight path.

The question is not if you want them to change the current system to use the tip and call it a day, it is more so if everything else is perfect, would you want to aim with the tip, or a reticle.

 

[Ori]

I did address that, by stating that the arrow tip can be made to line up with the centre of the screen at full draw.

I am also making the assumption that they will fix the angle of the arrow so that it makes sense and follows a logical flight path.

The question is not if you want them to change the current system to use the tip and call it a day, it is more so if everything else is perfect, would you want to aim with the tip, or a reticle.

Then I think I have an issue with your terminology. Aiming with the TIP is a terrible idea, aiming with the ARROW is fine and if done correctly should make a crosshair irrelevant.

However for the sake of consistency throughout the combat system, the crosshair should stay but be optional. You didn't change my mind but ty for the debate.

 

[ElPerro]

They should just copy rust archery, its the best implementation ive seen yet.

My biggest gripe with MO2 archery is you cant really see the projectiles, its almost like shooting a gun atm, so its harder to get a sense of the arrow drop for longer distance shots and leading targets

 

[Handsome Young Man]

The reticle isn't even accurate, arrow shoots above it.

 

[Rorry]

Add an option to vote for archery to be removed entirely, please.

 

[Kaemik]

I think it's less a question of what we want to suggest based on their resources, and more a poll on what the players actually want.

If you could have anything in the world for an archery aiming system, would it be tip based, or reticle based?

I really couldn't say until I play the system and get a feel for it. A reticle done right really doesn't kill the immersion factor for me that much, its one of those systems that really kind of disappears and you never really think about it once you've played the game a bit if you get what I mean. Like I THINK Darkfall had a reticle for archery but I really couldn't actually tell you. I remember the feel of firing and how the arrow left looking my bow but the GUI used to do so was invisible to me.

So really, all I care about is the feel of the archer system. Whatever GUI system I use to aim as long as it's not super intrusive will eventually be something I cease to think about.

 

[Grisù]

@Valoran I suggest you to add the "Indifferent (please explain)" option.

I suspect a consistent bunch of player is more interested in refine Archery itself before talking about hud sights or in game sights; things like make animation smoother especially for sequential shots, improve arrows ballistic, etc.
Just a suggestion to collect more schools of thought.

Once you got a consistent archery, for a player would be easier to choose the preferred aiming mode.

 

[Valoran]

@Valoran I suggest you to add the "Indifferent (please explain)" option.

I suspect a consistent bunch of player is more interested in refine Archery itself before talking about hud sights or in game sights; things like make animation smoother especially for sequential shots, improve arrows ballistic, etc.
Just a suggestion to collect more schools of thought.

Once you got a consistent archery, for a player would be easier to choose the preferred aiming mode.

Although I can see where you're coming from and I do agree that a lot of people probably are indifferent to this, this thread is not aimed to see how many people are indifferent, its purpose is to see how much interest there is in changing the aiming system from a reticle system to a tip based system without a reticle, and as such if you're indifferent about that this thread is not relevant to you.

If someone has any thoughts on it they're welcome to leave them, but the poll itself doesn't need additional answers.

 

[Kaemik]

I think it kind of matters. Consider these two result.

Poll 1: Do you prefer A or B?
90% A
10% B

Poll 2: Do you prefer A or B?
4.5%A
0.5%B
95% Indifferent

Obviously, that's a rather extreme example. But suppose doing arrow tip based aiming is more technically challenging. Knowing a large part of the audience is indifferent could help them decide if it's worth the resource investment or not. That being said, changing a poll after it's started would invalidate the results in my mind.