An Interesting Take on Development:

Emdash

Well-known member
Sep 22, 2021
3,005
956
113
I was watching a video about the AIDS game I have spent most of my life playing, NBA 2k. I played all the bball games that I could, but now there is pretty much only 2k for competition. The video features clips of a man talking about how to monetize your game. This is based on the "p2w" model, but I would say that it is more relevant than you think in regards to sub based games as well.


I marked the part where he talked about selling content. He says a lot of other things, too, which are interesting, but he states matter of factly that selling content is not sustainable. It's not. It doesn't take a marketing genius to see why. Not only are you setting yourself up to be on a never-ending treadmill (where you are the ones working and not your player base haha, in a sandbox??,) but you are also devaluing your previous content. Since most content in games comes in types (like, let's say for MO: magic schools, armor/wep types, dungeons/pois) there is a limit to how many times you can 'splash the pot' with that sort of stuff.

Now, we also hear him talking about progress and balance (competitive advantage.) I would bet anything that Henrik has done his homework on what he believes people need to continue playing. That is, he has taken in various seminars and read up on the psychology of the player. Why? Because it fits what has happened.

It is a sub based game, so it is not monetized, however, the implementation of progress through playtime is definitely something SV has done. There is also a limit to that before it starts negatively affecting the game, but let's put that to the side for a moment.

There is a great flaw, in my opinion, in this sort of 'normie' development. Why does the sandbox genre exist? The sandbox is designed for atypical players who are burnt out on the current flavor of games. It is also a sub based game, so people have to understand the downside of micro-transaction based gameplay. What people actually want (need, maybe) is slow block-by-block development that builds into something unique. Think of all the shit in MO. All of the tools they have. It's kind of amazing the amount of stuff you can do, but it's all blah because the game imposes limitations on itself. It is focused on creating an environment where players will never be angry enough with the game to quit, but where they are incentivized by content / progress to continue grinding or fighting over the opportunity to grind. That is flawed. I've said it before, but I will say it again.

Psychology is interesting. Psychology of gaming is interesting, but due to the fact that only certain companies have enough money to make games that can support these theories, I don't think there is enough data to say these ideas are optimal or, even, correct. They are logical in some cases.

The problem, and people know this even if they are addicted to a game, the GAMES are suffering due to these changes. MO is suffering as well. It is hard-capped, and it's turning into the kinda game like late stage Black Desert, where people come back for things, play for awhile, then quit again. It's too new of a game to be in that state. It needs immediate rethinking.

The original Henrik vision was TO MAKE A GOOD GAME. Henrik didn't really give a fuck about who quit or whatever as long as he felt he was getting his vision out. Now, people are quitting due to his vision, but not due to the game. So, I mean, people will quit anyway haha. People will also play anyway. You don't need to have people who never quit for the game to be good. I would argue it's irrational to try to hold onto the same players for a decade as your main player base. It makes everything harder for devs as well, when if people DO quit the game due to taking a hard loss or due to not having enough time, they can come back and everything will be new again. It requires fewer adjustments. They didn't need for you to make a new goal like NEW DUNGEON, their goal is the same, progress back to the point they were before they got destroyed.

If you look at people coming in and out, it will still fill the same amount of spots and you won't have to continually juice people with new incentives. The game will do the work, which is, as I said, the point of hardcore pvp sandboxes.

TRUST THE SYSTEM.
 

Sabottage

New member
Mar 4, 2023
9
9
3
Very intresting.

The way i see, is that MO2 should be/is a world with rules. And these rules allow players to interact and explore in anyway. New content should be new sets of rules and map expansins. No need for story or content development. As you said the players create their own content inside the boundaries set buy the rules. And content creation is unsustainable in the long run.

What i have learned with albion online is that the most important thing is, renewing your population. A game for veterans will never grow. We can look at the reboots of Dark Fall, there is no way new players will consistently join that game. Allowing new players to close the progression gap as soon as possible with veterans is key. Albion online was a super grindy game at the start, but eventually they realised the insane grind to be competitive, stat wise, dirves players away in a full loot mmo. The mastery system is a big thing. its a HUGE progression barrier to new players. The real barrier for new players should be gold and game knowledge. Character stats is something you can not loot from a kill or outplay. its an intrinsic characteristic which makes the new player experience less enjoyable and daunting until they hit the minimum required progression to be stat competitive.

Yes a new player is fucked either way. But every one likes to think they can win/outplay their oponet. And heck maybe a new player can out play a veteran and win. But with raw stats locked behinde a huge grind makes it a lot less possible. Locked stats do not feel good. Its not a good hook.

MO2 is a great game in my opinion, we just need to emphasise the right things. Player mechanical skill, knowledge and experiance. The rules that allow conflicts, suply, demand and drama, it is a social game after all. Not raw stats that gives veterans a numbers advantage. Unbalanced mechanics that take the decision out of player hands and makes combat a rock paper cisor gameplay.

I think i lost my train of thought hahaha. anyway, gg's.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Frederikkson

Emdash

Well-known member
Sep 22, 2021
3,005
956
113
yea, I really think that the mastery and clade systems should be redone to be selectable subclasses. They, as trinkets, just multiply the gear gap, when the game is based on gearing, making pots, heal food. There is enough to differentiate the players already.

The customization offered by a mastery / clade system is great, but there is no reason why you should have to grind it out. You already have to grind to hold TC, etc. The game play loop is bad. The mechanics are "ok." It's probably bloated a bit by too much shit, but there are definitely moments where MO can look like a good game. It's covered up, though.
 

Sabottage

New member
Mar 4, 2023
9
9
3
Is not the system that is bad. Is what you get when you level it. We all like to have a goal and long term progression. But the simple numbers advantage is very strong, on top of trinkets, on top of gear difference. Mortal is not a fresh game, where players dont mind the grind because everybody is starting together. It is an "old game" and the, getting there first advantage, is already set. Democratizing trinkets is awesome. Letting people roll 7% on amethyst is a gret decision. But now we have mastery. But if this is the intended design, so be it. I just know that a game made for veterans eventually dies. Stagnation is not an opion, either you grow or die out. So the grind will eventually be nefed. Maybe this is a step that every mmo has to go through.
 
Last edited:

MolagAmur

Well-known member
Jul 15, 2020
787
962
93
Yeah unfortunately they turned the "grind" of territory control and upkeeping your homes/keeps into more of a numbers grind with clade xp/trinkets and mastery. It's not that I don't think both can exist at the same time, but the endgame loop of MO2 right now doesn't sound appealing AT ALL to me. I have zero desire to login to the game and get to grinding mobs to play catch up. Having said that, I would do it if the end game was more involved.

I haven't kept up with the politics with MO2 so whoever has played both MO1 and MO2 feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but MO2 politics are stupidly boring. Its essentially a bunch of large guilds (since MO2 absolutely BUTCHERED small scale viability) fighting each other because they are bored. In MO1 we had massively epic wars that were personal. It would typically be this Alliance A vs Alliance B, but you a handful of other guilds that would just show up to cause chaos and not fight for either side. The politics felt so much more dramatic and overall enjoyable. Everyone was out to prove themselves and fight over stuff. Now? Its houses littered all over the map by large guilds who have tens of thousands of gold and more materials than they could ever use. Its basically a damn farming simulator and people only take fights if they know they have the advantage.

I guess its no surprise why most of us who played MO1 aren't playing MO2. Its just a wildly different but extremely similar experience (if that makes sense). The game used to be about player skill wayy back. Mortal 1 was a very unique MMO as I could be in a group with 5-8 other good players, and kite out zergs much larger than us and still win the fight by using the map to our advantage, better synergy, lower ttk, and cross healing. The only other game I know you can do that is ESO, but the combat is poop.

I kind of went off topic here, but yeah. I miss old MO1. MO2 just feels like an empty shell of what we once had. Maybe its just me being older now...who knows.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gnidex

Emdash

Well-known member
Sep 22, 2021
3,005
956
113
It's not that I don't think both can exist at the same time,

IMO they can't on more than a very superficial level (should be like cosmetic sort of things, capes and titles.) It's putting the progression in the wrong place. When I wrote my steam guide for MO2 around launch, I said remember you are essentially a naked, BUT you are immortal. You are a single naked character. Everything beyond that comes from gathering things that can be lost or working together with people in relationships that can sour. That's the progression. Gearing and progress should be mostly easy. The battle should be 'getting good' and learning how to survive in the world, forging relationships, creating systems to effectively do what you need to do, or how to obtain the progress level mats like those necessary for high level potions or gear. If that's not enough for people, the game isn't active enough. It's not the fault of the game. Like the vid said, it's not sustainable to sell content. It's also not sustainable to drive people with progress. I've played Black Desert, even though I never went full on and never put much money into it (like you're supposed to,) and I have seen their game go to shit as they try to shock it with new content / ways to progress. It's a diminishing return. Saw it happen in end game of other games I've played. They are doing end game shit in MO2. Like I said before, they started out MO2 where MO1 ended in a lot of ways, and that was wrong. They should have let it develop more organically.

Is not the system that is bad. Is what you get when you level it. We all like to have a goal and long term progression.

That's just it. I think it actually is bad. It's bad for the game, and it has tragic long term effects. The goal and progression is based on the in game world. Your character being more or less powerful is not important regarding the larger structure of the world. The goals would be like... building more stuff, taking over areas, and now if they introduce TC brokers, creating industry. TC buy orders, etc.
 

Speznat

Well-known member
May 28, 2020
1,275
1,175
113
Tindrem
wolfszeit.online
Fight between big alliances is often just a grind down in materials and people. Who has burnout first situation.
But it was also like that. I dont know. Im kinda used to this. I dont know how you guys feel about that.
 

Sabottage

New member
Mar 4, 2023
9
9
3
That's just it. I think it actually is bad. It's bad for the game, and it has tragic long term effects.
Having something to work twoards is good. Thats what I mean. The system of killing mobs getting xp and unlocking something is rewarding. And that what I mean with "the system is not bad". But getting extra damage or speed and so much more is the problem. If they for example allowed players to farm 100 levels and each level gives you an extra profession and action point for example. would be so much better. Instead of farming for more damage we would be farmiong to create more diverse builds. Allowing veterans to have an extra skill set. We would see thursars with swimming, Alvarins with mental training, Mages with heavy armor training and so much more. No one would have a huge advantage beside the build they choose and the gear they wear.
 

Emdash

Well-known member
Sep 22, 2021
3,005
956
113
Fight between big alliances is often just a grind down in materials and people. Who has burnout first situation.
But it was also like that. I dont know. Im kinda used to this. I dont know how you guys feel about that.

It is, but check this out. It might not be true, but I think it's true. It is the premise for a lot of my suggestions.

There will always be big alliances that rule everything. That is the main driver of content in a sandbox. The individual matters, too, but it matters only within the system set up by the alliances. So, the big alliances indeed do fight a grindy burn out war, and generally fight that constantly, and then when they burn out and somebody quits, a new entity comes in, or they absorb some of the people who didn't burn out and add in new people. The war continues.

However, this gives small groups and individuals who are not directly aligned with one of the sides tons of content. It drives the economy for them. If the entity can be cool with both big groups, they will be able to profit much. If they are cool with neither, they won't. Then, inevitably, they will choose a side (think back to ICH, love you ICH, but we know you were doing shit under the table while pretending to be neutral haha,) and get found out, then it will shock the world. MORE CONTENT.

The theory is that we don't want people to quit, but people are gonna quit on both sides: burnout and ragequit. It makes sense to balance the scale as much as possible, but you have to understand the nature of the game is gonna make people quit, and the whole purpose of this thread was to say development is putting themselves on an unsustainable treadmill by trying to roll out content that will retain players. It sounds asinine to say, but when you think about it, it's not. They are pressured, then, to continue to deliver new stuff and are also less able to deal with legacy problems. There is definitely an effect on player engagement, based on these content patches, but the question is how long does it last and how long can they continue to add content people care about?

It makes more sense, to me, to focus on the pillars of the game. The mastery system is cool because it offers customization. They should make that customization more available, make it even more focused on different builds, and stop just juicing attributes / percentages. Trinkets could easily be removed. If they are not removed, making them craftable and have it be like ring o' dex, ring o' slash, etc. Then drop on death. And you could have a couple levels. These random gen % loot trinkets that do not drop are absolutely ridiculous given what the game purports to be.

To finish, in regards to Sab's comment, yeah, the system 'works,' and yeah the idea of progression is good; however, grind = more power is not the right thing for this type of game. There is already gear, TC, siege... that should be enough. They need (still can, still a chance) to work on other things. Once the game is good, people will wonder why it wasn't always good. PEOPLE WILL PLAY.

Edit:

"We would see thursars with swimming, Alvarins with mental training, Mages with heavy armor training and so much more."

Yeah, I don't want that. They don't need more action points. Things were created with a balance in mind and you have to decide what to sacrifice to make it work. In MO2, there is much more room for playing with builds already, imo. I would be cool with them adding in a subclass system, as I said, or perk system that you pick, and have something take away action points and give you prof points, if you wanted to be a full spec crafter. Like -100 +200, whatever. Profession points are important, too, but not nearly as important as action points for balance. I don't know if lore still affects damage of animals, but nothing in profession should really affect action. If they can properly draw that line, I would be ok with people getting more prof points. That's more of a vet advantage cuz it offers nothing for combat but you could ostensibly end up with 3 characters worth of crafting (if you do the points right) or close on 2 characters because of overlap with x amount of prof points. That would be an insane advantage, but it wouldn't break the game like the bonuses do.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Speznat

Gnidex

Active member
Feb 2, 2022
331
199
43
Eh, they went tall instead of going wide.

Wrong approach if UO is your blueprint. The skillgrind was never a big investment in UO, base pvp gear wasn't either. The grind was in the bling and housing.
 

Gnidex

Active member
Feb 2, 2022
331
199
43
I love that, haha. Very easy to imagine and spot on.
Adding a paragon system is sadly the low hanging fruit to keep the already invested grinding on. It does nothing but deter new blood coming into the game since the catch-up is getting longer and longer. The same idiocy like thinking that the Epic launch would bring anyone into the game when guilds had 2 years to accumulate wealth and exploits.

Going wide instead requires some brain and good design which SV sadly just isn't capable of with their current CEO and the lone single senior dev they have.
 

Emdash

Well-known member
Sep 22, 2021
3,005
956
113
Adding a paragon system is sadly the low hanging fruit to keep the already invested grinding on. It does nothing but deter new blood coming into the game since the catch-up is getting longer and longer. The same idiocy like thinking that the Epic launch would bring anyone into the game when guilds had 2 years to accumulate wealth and exploits.

Going wide instead requires some brain and good design which SV sadly just isn't capable of with their current CEO and the lone single senior dev they have.

the thing about sandbox is you can depend on your community for the wideness.

I know I've said this before, but lol they are talking about blessed trinkets and shit (dunno what that is, but if it's what I think it's like eee.) I feel like Henrik is trolling my life.

I mean I gave it a good try. It would be nice if they could split the game for people who actually want a sandbox and for those who want whatever it is now, but they never will.