About Armor Penalties

[Silenko]

I've seen a lot of fuzz lately about this topic and I would like to give my opinion and see what others think, in a civilized way.

Currently, the only penalty Heavy Armor has is point investment; armor penalties only affect mana regen in a noticeable way, you can still perform all the other tasks with ease:

Riding > As far as I know, no penalties for riding or for your horse while the animal carries you, he only has a penalty to speed if the animal has armor or bags equipped, and also stamina, but as far as speed for carrying an armored player, nothing. Mount can even swim indefinetly with easy when fully burdened.

Foot or Mounted combat > The only noticeable penalty the armor has is a mana regen one. You can more at 100% speed, there is a stamina regen debuff, but not very noticeable since the stamina pools of the players using armors are high so you would only notice this if the fight is long. There is no swing speed, casting speed or MOVEMENT speed penalty AT ALL, which should be there considering the amount of weight being carried. You can also swim with 0 penalty , jump with almost no penalty and so on.

Temperature / Interaction with spells > This is coming to some extent, it was in game if I recall correctly but once again, people didn't like it since they want their armor with no penalties.

So, in my opinion, we need MORE penalties to the use of armors. I'm not saying make people unable to move while in Heavy Armor, but some penalty to speed , swinging and casting speed is needed. It doesn't make sense that a guy in full heavy armor can swim normally and match the speed of someone underwater , even when he's with unsheated weapon swimming only with 2 legs. This also happens while on foot, a full heavy armored person is running at same speed or even faster than someone naked.

Having some penalties would even things out, people would have to use other materials to craft armors and they would have to decide if they want the protection at the cost of some penalties; I think the reasoning behind 100 Armor Training and 100 Heavy armor complely negating the penalties is wrong, and we all should have some, not just mana regen.

 

[Jackdstripper]

They tried this already in MO1 for a while. They added a stam regen penalty to heavy armour. The heavier the armour the bigger the penalty. anything steel and above was noticeable.

The only thing that happened was that people stopped using metals for armours , and everyone was just running around in bone armour.
Price of metals dropped to almost nothing and nobody cared to mine all the ore required to make so much metal. They eventually removed the penalty and metal armours came back.

Metal armour is expensive, very time consuming to make, and a primary points investment. The only reason people do it is because it provides better defence without any penalties. Even a slight penalty will make people stop using it because its so much work to get. Whats the point of mining and slag hauling if you can just go and farm a few mobs for your mats?

I think that they currently have a very good balance. Steel should be the material most people want to wear for pvp. Better metals should be sought after by those that can afford it.

 

[Silenko]

I think that they currently have a very good balance

There is no balance without penalties

 

[Jatix]

There is no balance without penalties

Cost is a penalty.

And mana regen is a penalty. Mages constantly use not heavy armor.

And for heavy armors, theres plenty of reason to use the different materials. I've still never made a steel armor part, isnt worth it to me. I love low risk gear too much lol.

 

[MolagAmur]

I've brought this up to Henrik so many times now. He says "well when we look at our data players are using all kinds of armors". Its like yeah no shit, mages are using light armor and warriors aren't.

I've wanted more incentive for scale/leather armors for melee's for a long time. We have very minor ones, but the benefits to it don't even come close to the benefit of higher protection from plated armors. When someone ask "hey can you make me an armor" all you reply with is "yeah sure whats your max weight".

There is so little diversity its so boring.

 

[Wyndorn]

The increase stamina drain for heavy armors is not unnoticeable. For example, multiple times I've seen Tatsuya wearing steel on stream and complain he doesn't have enough stam.

 

[Emdash]

If it creates more chaos/damage, I am for it.

I know I am a skirmisher. I know my role. The game play is so stale, tho, it's hard to judge things, but yes a core problem is too much heavy armor, but I think the biggest core problem is that 16 wt bone trash armor is good enough for pvp. lol. It really IS. It's a disadvantage, but if you could be like I get to play MO and every time I press res, I have a mola suit and a steel wep of my choice... you'd be set for war. Then you start seeing the flawed combat, but the heaviness of those other armors is nuts... Even rep carp is heavy as hell.

Don't ever forget about jump, jump matters a decent amount if you know how to use it.

 

[Woody]

Jackdstripper is pretty spot on in their observation here and why it's probably in a very healthy place as it is. Any major tweak to armor penalties now could shift armor usage into a worse place. I'd prefer however that they normalise stamina regen across the board (like they have already been mostly doing) so there's no impact on the regen % outside of hostile spells that reduce it. In it's place, change the armor penalty to impact acceleration (e.g. the time it takes to get to max combat speed when pressing sprint). This way lighter armors for people that want to use them for hit and run, kite/mobile etc. could be it's own niche while at the same time making stamina management less frustrating for longer fights.

 

[MolagAmur]

If it creates more chaos/damage, I am for it.

I know I am a skirmisher. I know my role. The game play is so stale, tho, it's hard to judge things, but yes a core problem is too much heavy armor, but I think the biggest core problem is that 16 wt bone trash armor is good enough for pvp. lol. It really IS. It's a disadvantage, but if you could be like I get to play MO and every time I press res, I have a mola suit and a steel wep of my choice... you'd be set for war. Then you start seeing the flawed combat, but the heaviness of those other armors is nuts... Even rep carp is heavy as hell.

Don't ever forget about jump, jump matters a decent amount if you know how to use it.

I hear that complaint alot. That "bone tissue armor is good enough for PvP". But I don't see an issue with that whatsoever. If a guy in bone tissue beats you in your steel or whatever you're wearing...more power to the bone guy.

However, especially being a full-loot game, serious PvPers will always want to min-max. There are some people who can win against steel armor as a naked.

The question is who is bone tissue armor good enough for?

 

[Grudge Bringer]

Someones shitter is poor.

 

[Tzone]

Mana regen, stamina regen, and material cost along with the points.

Why dont mages where heavy plate armors? Or every mounted?

I hear that complaint alot. That "bone tissue armor is good enough for PvP". But I don't see an issue with that whatsoever. If a guy in bone tissue beats you in your steel or whatever you're wearing...more power to the bone guy.

However, especially being a full-loot game, serious PvPers will always want to min-max. There are some people who can win against steel armor as a naked.

The question is who is bone tissue armor good enough for?

bone tissue needs a nerf at least to the dura cost when you hit it with a steel sword. Its not that bone is good enough but its like one or two pig kills and now you are a threat. Its enough to make you a threat that cant be ignored for about 2 minutes of farming if that.
The real BM is that you lose a decent amount of dura on your steel weps to bone tissue

 

[Jatix]

bone tissue needs a nerf at least to the dura cost when you hit it with a steel sword. Its not that bone is good enough but its like one or two pig kills and now you are a threat. Its enough to make you a threat that cant be ignored for about 2 minutes of farming if that.
The real BM is that you lose a decent amount of dura on your steel weps to bone tissue

I'm going to be honest, as the guy who rolls bone 24/7 because i'm insanely cheap, and broke, and dont want to worry about losing gear when I get rolled or zerged. Bone is aweful. You need to be much better than your enemy to win the fight. and if you are roiling bone, you probobly have a flake, or emalj wep, because anything better is a waste to use with the bone. in tind flake is 80g a stack. 40g a stack in some other towns. Nubs that need to use bone because its virtually free cant afford that. so if you have an emalj wep with the bone, you are at an insane disadvantage vs anyone with even semi decent gear. And if they 'splurge' and use a flake wep, its still trash vs anything better.

The other day I attacked a guy wearing crustacean carapace, with my bone and emalj spear. I was hitting 5 to10's with like 1 13 lmao. What's really sad is he somehow died. Most of my engagements don't go nearly as well, and I get hit for 40 to 50's while hitting like 25 tops.

I get that bone over performs for costing 0. But the way I look at it, is broke players need a way to play the game and not just get cleaned every 2 seconds. Think new players. They cant win a fight. They are worse at the game. and they are out geared, so every fight is at a disadvantage. but they cant roll better gear because they still die and then they get to start over, farm again, repeat until they quit. A nerf to bone would just screw them and make them lose even more. Every half decent player I run into, is rolling better gear anyway.

 

[Contorto]

IMO armor stats need a complete rework before the devs think about adding penalties to armor. As it stands almost every plate armor made from a metal is pure dog shit, they either have horrible stats or wgt to much to even wear, or have both horrible stats and wgt to much, meanwhile plate armors made from bond matz have decent stats wgt almost nothing and the matz can be farmed off almost any animal that not a pig in massive stacks. Also DMG resistance ranges in regards to matz and armor style need to be more drastic, you can make Merc armor out of anything an it slashing and pierce will be nearly the same 100% of the time, and making Tindremic knight armor while you'll end up with more Slashing def but lower piercing def compared to Merc the difference is only by 1-2 points.

 

[Gnidex]

Tbh, there is no real armor balance in the game. No point in using anything but merc plate, depending on your armor carry weight. That or ranger armor if you are a mage. Enjoy.

 

[Emdash]

I hear that complaint alot. That "bone tissue armor is good enough for PvP". But I don't see an issue with that whatsoever. If a guy in bone tissue beats you in your steel or whatever you're wearing...more power to the bone guy.

However, especially being a full-loot game, serious PvPers will always want to min-max. There are some people who can win against steel armor as a naked.

The question is who is bone tissue armor good enough for?

Hey, I meant Mola/Incis sort of bone. I'm seeking bone tissue like stats, but the wt... I mean for a heavy armor a bone tissue set is better than bone tissue any thing else, really, but that's cuz of how dmg works. Still, it's not gonna enough. I'm like Lord MISER in MO2 and even I've said to Jatix BONE TISSUE?

Khurite splint hornscale QL.. 10.7 wt... 40~ prots. It's not all about winning straight up. It's about attrition, and it benefits ZERGS who are not dumb. Esp if they wanna keep zerging. It benefits zergs and me haha.

But if I'm gonna wear 14 wt for bone tissue, I'll go all the way to mola, ironbone, incis...

Animats, in general tho, rep carp ehhh. I have my my moments. I made a leet khurite set w/ iron silk and dudes took that shit off me from behind. The last thing I wanna do is play like I'm scared or worried. If people get me from behind it's like ah ok... but that was salty.

I've NEVER WORN A STEEL SET IN MO HISTORY. I've put them on, put on tung pieces, but never actually used it. haha. I don't see a huge difference on outcomes.

There are def places that I'd want that... like at a siege, on foot in GK/Kran or something, but general world stuff or stopping to get involved in other people's trolling... I think med armor is fine, and it makes humans a great trash armor race, too. BT for humans, scales for elves. Jump over the moooon.

 

[Exfaust]

I’m sure it’d be an exciting game of Alvarin Online.

Armor is indicative of time investment for resources as well as the primary points to take on the skill to utilize it as is. Armor types should offer something more significantly different (plate vs laminated vs whatever whatever) though because the linear approach of max heavy armor training being objectively better always is a little lacking in terms of creativity.

That being said, I don’t think heavy armors need a nerf at all so much as having more options with choice or influence to pick alternatives would be a net positive. Aside from just going solely off of slash pierce blunt etc.

 

[Jatix]

IMO armor stats need a complete rework before the devs think about adding penalties to armor. As it stands almost every plate armor made from a metal is pure dog shit, they either have horrible stats or wgt to much to even wear, or have both horrible stats and wgt to much, meanwhile plate armors made from bond matz have decent stats wgt almost nothing and the matz can be farmed off almost any animal that not a pig in massive stacks. Also DMG resistance ranges in regards to matz and armor style need to be more drastic, you can make Merc armor out of anything an it slashing and pierce will be nearly the same 100% of the time, and making Tindremic knight armor while you'll end up with more Slashing def but lower piercing def compared to Merc the difference is only by 1-2 points.

Rip my fav armor, messing. stuff blows so bad in this. And its one of the more 'viable' metals. Unlike cupprum which never even had a chance to be used lol.

 

[Emdash]

I’m sure it’d be an exciting game of Alvarin Online.

Armor is indicative of time investment for resources as well as the primary points to take on the skill to utilize it as is. Armor types should offer something more significantly different (plate vs laminated vs whatever whatever) though because the linear approach of max heavy armor training being objectively better always is a little lacking in terms of creativity.

That being said, I don’t think heavy armors need a nerf at all so much as having more options with choice or influence to pick alternatives would be a net positive. Aside from just going solely off of slash pierce blunt etc.

They just need to either re adjust the speed curve or take away the alv shouts. Either would be balanced. They need to be closer in speed to some other races, like Khur, Lean TK, etc. Then they can put on the jets for 19 sec ok. But to have an immense tick speed boost + the escape skills just makes it stupid. I'd be rolling veela anyway, but it's been OP. It's not OP in battle or anything, but out in the world it is. The worst I do myself is jumping off a mountain forgetting the boost is on haha.

Then they need to make something happen with armor. Even that you can kinda swim in a certain weight of armor is a good start. Stuff like that. But they can't just mess with speeds. There are a lot of things missing from clades. Alv is one of the unique ones. They should un-nerf naiad, take away their shouts or their clade passive speed boosts. They are definitely a unique race still. Then work on giving flavor to other races. I think Ogh is cool, too. I don't think ogh is as close to THE INTENTION of what ogh was gonna be, but it's whatever. Alv is on point tho. They are the most masterful troll race. If you are rolling a troll build and you aren't an alv you are nuts.

 

[Midas]

light -0 dex >medium -2 dex >heavy -3 dex per piece. problem solved.

 

[Maxisan]

nerf the fuck out of heavy armor footies, fuck em. Fuck out of here with this bullshit OP.

Don't fuck with their speed, just make it drain the fuck out of their stam like 2-3 times. Problemo solvedo next!