A Developer’s Guide to Fixing the Justice System: Part 2 – Managing Players-As-Content

[WeAreAllMortal]

Why Does a Sandbox PvP MMORPG Even Need a Justice System?​

The answer, while intuitively obvious, can be elusive—unless you look at the game from a different angle. Once you do, it all becomes quite simple.

A sandbox MMO is, at its core, a social platform—much like social media. The players themselves are not just participants; they are the content. In fact, they make up easily three-quarters (or more) of the game’s meaningful content.

In PvE-centric or consensual PvP games, content consists primarily of:
Quests
Dungeons
Battlegrounds
Arenas
Scripted NPCs

All of these are handcrafted experiences entirely under the developers’ control. The devs can:
✔ Fine-tune dungeon bosses
✔ Adjust battleground entry criteria
✔ Rebalance arenas
✔ Modify AI behavior

They control every aspect of the game’s experience.

Now, contrast that with a sandbox PvP game, where the players are the content. Suddenly, the devs have zero control over the experience.

"Oh, but the players will create content!" you say?​

Yes, they absolutely will. But what kind of content?

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The Cold Reality of Player-Driven Content​

Developers create PvE content to be engaging and enjoyable because their goal is to sell a game that people want to play. Their incentive is to create fun, fair, and balanced experiences.

Players, on the other hand, have no such incentive.

Players in a sandbox PvP game do not make content for the enjoyment of others. Their goal is self-interest—to dominate, to win, to accumulate wealth, resources, and power.

In a full-loot PvP world, the optimal strategy is to make the game as miserable as possible for everyone else, because:
✔ The more your enemies suffer, the more territory and resources you control.
✔ The easier it is to drive out competition and establish dominance.
✔ It creates a cycle where the worst behaviors get rewarded the most.

That’s not theory—it’s game logic. SV makes this a selling point, but then pretends it will magically result in quality content—when the exact opposite is true.

Given the choice between a fair fight and a completely one-sided stomp that causes their opponent to rage-quit, players will always choose the latter.​

So, what kind of content do players create in an unregulated PvP sandbox?

A world dominated by griefing, ganking, and exploit abuse.
A meta that prioritizes the most unfun, degenerate tactics imaginable.
A player base that dwindles as normal players leave, leaving only the worst of the worst behind.

This is the inevitable death spiral of unregulated player-driven content:

The most toxic behaviors dominate.
This drives away players looking for a richer, more immersive experience.
With fewer of these players, the common denominator of interaction drops even lower.
The remaining player base becomes increasingly skewed toward griefers and exploiters.
More players leave, leaving behind only the most committed griefers.
Eventually, even they leave, because their only remaining targets are other griefers.

This is why MO2’s player-driven content has already hit rock bottom—endless trash talk in Help chat, rampant griefing, and a game world filled with nothing but kill squads and thug roleplay.

SV loves to trumpet the idea that “players are the content,” but they completely misunderstand what that actually means.​

They assume it means free, player-driven, organic fun.

What it actually means is a social media platform without moderation—where the worst behavior inevitably takes over.

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Why a Justice System Is Not Optional—It’s Essential​

And that’s why a justice system isn’t just a nice extra feature—
It is the single most important system in a sandbox MMORPG.

Without it, MO2’s world is doomed to remain an unmoderated wasteland of griefing, where the player experience spirals ever downward until there’s no one left to grief.

How Should Justice Work?​

A proper justice system must:

✔ Influence player behavior through in-game mechanics, not just GM moderation or vague social expectations.
✔ Regulate non-consensual PvP dynamically, so it doesn’t become all-or-nothing.
✔ Ensure that crime carries meaningful consequences—and that victims aren’t just left with nothing.

Right now, MO2’s justice system does none of these things.
It’s nothing more than a pointless five-minute timer and an NPC reputation grind—a joke, not a deterrent.

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Fix #3: Tie Criminal Status to Meaningful Restitution, Not Five-Minute Timers or Rep Grinding​

Right now, criminal status in MO2 is not tied to actual justice—it’s tied to:

Arbitrary timers
Reputation-based exploits
A system that lets criminals wait out their crimes instead of facing consequences

How It Currently Works:​

Commit murder? No problem! Just wait five minutes, and you’re blue again.
Killed twenty people? Just kill some wolves or deliver mail, and you’re off the hook.
Want to cheese the system? Murder, wait, grind NPC rep, repeat.

The result?​

Criminals get away with murder—literally—while victims are left with nothing.
Justice isn’t served, and crime has no meaningful consequence.

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How Do We Break This Cycle?​

Instead of swinging between total anarchy or total opt-out through a PvP toggle, we create a system that regulates PvP in a meaningful way.

One that:​

✔ Regulates the amount of griefing dynamically.
→ Criminal penalties and victim compensation can be scaled based on need.

✔ Allows for real-world tuning of ganking levels.
→ If crime becomes excessive, increase the burden on criminals or increase victim compensation.
→ If crime is too rare, lighten penalties or reduce the chance of being caught.

✔ Ties punishment and restitution together.
→ Instead of arbitrary jail times, criminals must pay off their crimes directly—either through gold, materials, or labor that compensates the victim.

✔ Ensures criminals can actually be caught.
→ The guard system needs a complete overhaul.
→ Players cannot be expected to patrol the game world 24/7.
→ NPCs must enforce justice so that criminals cannot roam unchecked.

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Why Reducing Griefing Doesn’t Kill PvP—It Improves It​

“This will kill PvP!”
No, it won’t. And here’s why:

✔ Consensual PvP remains untouched. Guild wars, sieges, duels—all the same.
✔ Random griefing will drop—but what remains will be higher quality and more meaningful.
✔ The hardcore elite PKs will still be there—because they’ll rise to the challenge.
✔ More non-PK players = fewer ganks per victim → making the game more playable for everyone.

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This is the foundation for a sustainable sandbox PvP world.
A world where criminals are actually criminals—not just players cheesing a broken system.
A world where being a PK requires strategy, not just mindless farming of noobs.
A world where getting PK’d is rare enough to be exciting, instead of a daily tedium.

 

[WeAreAllMortal]

SV’s Justice System Is a Joke—But It Doesn’t Have to Be​

The solution isn’t hard. The three core levers—criminal penalties, victim restitution, and crime detection (guards)—can be tuned as needed to keep the game balanced.

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How It Should Work: A Restitution System​

The current system relies on time-based resets and NPC reputation exploits, allowing criminals to erase their crimes with zero consequences. Instead, we replace this with player-driven restitution and actual penalties for unresolved murder counts.

1. Restitution as a Choice​

When a player is killed, the victim can file a Restitution Claim at a Justiciar NPC near the priest or town jail.

✔ The victim sets a gold demand for compensation.
✔ The criminal views the claim at a Fixer NPC in a red town or outlaw settlement.
✔ The criminal must decide:

Pay in full → Deliver the demanded gold to the Fixer and clear their record.
Refuse to pay → The crime remains unresolved, and they stay red until caught or they settle.
? Make a counteroffer → The red can propose a lower restitution amount (e.g., the victim claims 100g, but the red offers 10g). The victim can accept or refuse.

The Fixer NPC serves as a shady middleman, with lines like:

"Justice doesn’t come cheap, but hey, neither does freedom."
"Don’t like the price? Good luck running from your past."

If a red refuses to pay, they stay red for at least a week—or until captured or restitution is settled.

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Why Restitution Cannot Be Exploited for Farming​

Poorly designed justice systems invite abuse—especially if the game itself compensates victims. Without safeguards, we’d see murder-farming exploits like this:

A red teams up with a blue "victim."
The red racks up fake murder counts, repeatedly killing their accomplice.
The system pays out "compensation" when the red is caught.
Repeat endlessly, printing free gold.

Result? Murder becomes a gold farm instead of a deterrent.

The Zero-Sum Fix: No Exploits, No Farming​

The Restitution System ensures that every coin comes out of the murderer’s own pocket—meaning no possible profit.

✔ Murderer pays 10g → The victim receives 10g.
✔ Total profit: 0.
✔ Total time wasted: Considerable.
✔ Total point to the exercise: None.

There is no reason to farm murder counts because nobody gains anything from the system.

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2. Escalation: The Penal Colony​

If a red refuses restitution and is captured by guards, bounty hunters, or vigilantes, they don’t just respawn somewhere safe.

Instead, they’re sent to:

The Penal Colony: A Grim Island of Labor and Restitution​

(Think Haven for Griefers, but worse—full PvP enabled, everywhere, all the time.)

A remote, heavily guarded island, the Penal Colony is where captured criminals work off their crimes. It’s a lawless purgatory where the only way out is through sweat, toil, or betrayal.

Key Features:​

✔ No free escape. The only way out is to pay off your restitution debt through labor.
✔ Resources must be farmed. Wood, ore, leather—whatever victims demanded in restitution.
✔ Full inventory escrow. Captured reds lose access to their belongings until their crimes are cleared.
✔ Reds can gank other reds. Players can rob fellow convicts of their farmed resources—shortening their own stay while extending that of their victim. (Enjoy your favorite pastime!)
✔ NPC Enforcers: The Bailiff tracks debts, the Quartermaster provides basic tools, and the Release Officer determines when players can leave.

No bank. No trader. Just naked griefers, pickaxes, and their NPC jailors.

A Taste of the NPC Dialogue:​

The Bailiff: “Don’t look at me like that. You earned your time here.”
⚒ The Quartermaster: “Tools don’t grow on trees—though maybe you’ll find some while chopping one down.”
The Release Officer: “Ah, here it is. Everything you brought in—minus the bad attitude.”

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A Massive Win for Developers: No More Crime & Punishment Balancing Act​

Right now, SV isn’t tweaking the justice system—they’re ignoring it. The numbers they chose—five minutes for grey status, eight hours for murder counts, ten murders before turning red—weren’t carefully balanced.

They were neutered from the start because the system forces nearly every player to commit crimes just to play the game.

AOE users and Necromancers must toggle criminal mode just to function.
Guild wars and friendly duels create accidental greys and murder counts.
Players avenging their own murder after the five-minute revenge timer expires are forced to go grey themselves.

This artificially inflates crime rates, making punishments impossible to enforce. Instead of fixing the core issue, SV took the lazy way out—removing real consequences entirely.

The Restitution System solves this:

✔ Criminals must actively clear their crimes—instead of waiting out timers.
✔ No more accidental greys and forced criminality.
✔ Crime has real, dynamic consequences—without needing constant dev intervention.

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SV’s Strategy: Throwing Players a Bone (Literally)​

Let’s be honest—SV isn’t carefully balancing the justice system.

There’s no grand design, no team of developers tweaking mechanics like tightrope walkers.

They’re playing a different game entirely:

Throw a bone to the players, hope they chase it, and forget about the real problems.

It’s the same tactic I use with my dog Rox when we encounter hikers. At 55kg of high-speed death on four paws, he looks like a dire wolf. Understandably, hikers get nervous when he barrels toward them.

If he’s feeling particularly boisterous, I grab a stick and chuck it into the forest—and problem solved. Rox dashes off, the hikers breathe a sigh of relief, and I avoid an awkward situation.

This works because Rox is a dog. He’s not programmed for critical thinking.

SV treats players the same way—except it doesn’t work.

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Instead of More "Fixes," Just Fix the Game​

Every new distraction SV throws out—toggling priests blue, adding relics, announcing a new continent—is just another bone thrown into the yard.

It doesn’t fix the core problem.
It doesn’t balance anything.
It just gives the illusion of change.

Instead of pointless distractions, SV could revitalize MO2 overnight simply by fixing what already exists.

✔ Crime should feel real.
✔ PKs should actually be outlaws.
✔ Justice should matter.

Until then, the game will keep bleeding players—because nobody wants to be the content in an unmoderated murder simulator.

 

[WeAreAllMortal]

Case in Point: The Red Priest Disaster​

Take the red priest changes, which were presumably intended to stop blues from getting serially ganked while picking up lore books at lawless camps.

I say presumably because, let’s be honest, trying to make sense of SV’s thought process is an exercise best left undone.

Instead of fixing the actual problem, SV just flipped the priests blue, creating a laughable, lore-breaking mess.

Blue priests… at the only settlements in the heart of lawless regions? Seriously?

A Proper Fix That Actually Makes Sense​

✔ Add 2-3 justice-neutral guards that attack players committing crimes in their line of sight.
✔ Keep the priests red, usable by both reds and blues.
✔ Make the guards indifferent to player justice status—but not indifferent to crimes committed in their presence.
That’s it. Problem solved—without breaking the rest of the system.

No harebrained “Let’s just flip the priest toggle” move.
No shallow illusion of a fix.
No “Look, we did something!” moment that solves nothing.

✔ Just one simple, consistent, and logical change that actually works.

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And Then There’s the “Now You Can Attack Reds in Town” Fix…​

Another example of an SV distraction masquerading as a fix:

"Oh, now blues can attack reds in town!"

A massive improvement, right? Except…

➡ Players could already kill reds outside of town.
➡ This changed absolutely nothing—except to encourage reds to strut around town with an "I dare you" attitude.

In other words:

"Just gonna flog my loot, do some banking, and pick up a task or two. Playing the game exactly as intended!"

These were never solutions—just distractions.

SV tosses them out, hoping to placate players.
But spoiler alert: They never do.
They just make things worse.

SV, you should have figured that out by now.

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A Crime & Punishment System That Balances Itself​

With the penal colony as a fallback, devs only need to decide one thing:

How much material should criminals have to farm if they refuse to pay restitution?

And even this is easy to balance—assuming one actually knows how the economy works, which presupposes understanding how the game is played.

Spoiler alert: The GMs clearly don’t. The Devs? No one really knows—because no one’s ever seen them play the game, or if they even do.

GM's for their part regularly provide nonsensical information to new players… and then direct them to ask—wait for it—other players!

In other words, GMs openly admit that players are more qualified to do their jobs than they are.

And you know what? They’re right.

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Balancing Restitution: Just Ask a Player​

If balancing resources as proper penance is too complicated, just ask a player—because, well…

✔ Players actually know how the game works.

Restitution Scaling Can Be Tuned Dynamically based on real player data:

Is griefing going down?
✔ Yes: Are griefers playing the game less?
✔ Yes: Reduce the amount of material needed for restitution.
✔ No: Leave it as is.

No: Increase the required restitution materials.

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Real Data, Real Justice: Why This System Will Finally Make Crime Stats Matter​

Right now, MO2’s crime statistics are utterly useless because half the “criminals” aren’t actually criminals.

The current system forces lawful players into criminal acts—meaning the stats paint an inaccurate picture of actual PK activity.

Example: How the System Falsely Criminalizes Players​

A lawful player defending themselves? Criminal.
A mage using AoE in PvE? Criminal.
A player avenging their own murder? Criminal.
Two guilds engaging in a consensual PvP battle? Mass murderers.

The result?
➡ Every player looks like a criminal on paper.
➡ The crime data is completely unreliable.
➡ SV can’t even tell who the real griefers are.

They’ve built a system that criminalizes normal gameplay.

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The Seven Fixes Will Finally Make Crime Data Accurate​

Once we stop forcing lawful players into criminal status, the crime statistics will finally be meaningful:

Real PKs and griefers will stand out.
If someone racks up multiple murder counts in the new system, we’ll know with absolute certainty they’re a deliberate PK.

✔ No more mages flagged as criminals for using AoE.
✔ No more blue players forced into red status just to avenge their own murder.
✔ Criminal acts will actually indicate criminal behavior.

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SV Will Finally Have Reliable Data on Criminal Engagement​

✔ Are griefers still playing?
✔ If yes, is their activity increasing or decreasing?

If griefing decreases, but player activity stays stable or rises—then we have a win.

MO2 has finally found balance.

If griefing remains high, or griefers quit faster than new players join, then SV can adjust restitution requirements up or down.

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A Crystal-Clear Crime Profile for Every Player​

Right now, nobody knows who the real griefers are—because everyone is forced into criminality.

With our fixes, PKs will no longer be hidden among falsely criminalized blues—they’ll be easily identifiable.

✔ SV can track whether PKs continue playing, reform, or simply vanish because their favorite exploits are gone.

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Preempting the "You're Killing Our Playstyle!" Argument​

Ah yes, the inevitable “But you’re killing our playstyle!” complaint.

To which we respond:

This “playstyle” is precisely what’s ruining the game.

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Let’s Be Crystal Clear​

This is NOT a “playstyle” issue—it’s a fundamental balance issue.

In a perfect world, people would know where to draw the line between PvP and game-breaking griefplay.

Newsflash: Nave is not a perfect world.

MO2 attracts people who don’t know where to draw the line—because the game encourages them not to.

Right now, MO2 is a paradise for the lowest common denominator.

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Our Seven Fixes Are Designed to Dismantle Each of Those Seven Heavens​

We’re not killing PvP—we’re killing exploit-driven, risk-free griefing.

✔ PKs will still exist—but they will have to face real consequences.
✔ The real hardcore players will adapt.
✔ The fake ones—the ones who only enjoy PKing because the system lets them do it with impunity—will either reform or quit.

And that’s precisely the point.

We are not killing a playstyle.

We are grounding it in reality.

It’s time for grief players to come crashing back down to planet Earth.

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For Every Griefer Who Rage Quits, 100 New Players Will Take Their Place​

MO2 has immense potential—a brutal, open-world sandbox where every interaction matters.

But there’s been one glaring problem:

The only people who stick around are those who thrive in the current broken system—or those of us stubborn enough to endure it.

But let’s be honest:

➡ We are the exception.

The vast majority of players won’t “grit their teeth” and “tough it out.”
They’ll just say, “Screw this broken system,” and leave.
And that’s exactly what’s been happening for two years.

 

[WeAreAllMortal]

Safe Zones vs. PvP Free-for-All: The False Choice ​

Most players will always pick a game with a PvP toggle and safe zones over one where PvP is a lawless free-for-all with no moderation. That’s why games like Albion retain far more players than MO2.

But the idea that it has to be one or the other—total safety or complete chaos—is false.

MO2 doesn’t need safe zones. It needs a functional justice system—one that reduces griefing by 90% while still making non-consensual PvP possible anywhere and any time.

PKing is a core part of MO2, and it should remain so. But griefing as a core mechanic? That’s what’s driving people away. Right now, the game isn’t hardcore—it’s just toxic.

With the changes we’ve proposed, MO2 could finally strike the right balance:
✔ No true safe zones—but also no mindless griefing.
✔ PKing becomes a high-risk, high-reward playstyle—with actual consequences.
✔ The world stays immersive and dangerous—but in a way that’s engaging, not just frustrating and mindlessly savage.

That’s the key to making MO2 a genuinely great hardcore MMO—instead of just an MMO where the only ones left playing are the griefers and the few who can tolerate them.

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The Current State of MO2: ​

New players log in... get ganked, looted, and corpse-camped.
They log off... and never come back.
They don’t even get to the “this game is hardcore” realization—they just see a game that actively punishes them for existing.

This is why MO2 is bleeding players faster than it can replace them.

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The Seven Fixes Will Turn This Around​

For every griefer who rage quits, MO2 will gain 100 new players.
The toxic few who drive away new players will finally be gone.
The silent majority—players who actually want meaningful PvP, player-driven justice, and a game that rewards skill over exploitation—will flood in.

The difference between a thriving MMO and a dead MMO isn’t the presence of PKs—it’s when the game forces everyone into a griefer’s world by default.

PKs should be the outliers—the elite few who embrace the risk, not the standard playstyle forced on the entire player base.

Right now, MO2 is optimized for a small club of griefers.
With the Seven Fixes, it will finally be optimized for a thriving player base.

Do the math.​

Would you rather have 500 griefers or 50,000 engaged players?
It’s time to stop catering to the loudest whiners and start building the game the majority actually wants to play.

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Why This System Works: A Win-Win for Everyone​

For Victims:​

✔ Meaningful restitution instead of just being left with nothing.
✔ A real justice system, not a five-minute inconvenience for murderers.

For Red Players:​

✔ A savage survival zone, armed with just your pickaxe rather than a boring punishment.
✔ An immersive, if traumatising way to return to blue without tedious NPC grinding.
✔ Opportunities for Drama, Betrayal, and Rivalries in the Penal Colony.

The penal colony isn’t just a prison—it’s a pressure cooker for red-on-red conflict. With limited resources and an inescapable island, every outlaw is forced into a desperate game of survival, cooperation, and backstabbing.

Cons can gank each other with their pickaxes, looting hard-earned materials straight from their victims' corpses.
This means one player’s shortened sentence comes at the direct expense of another’s extended misery.
Expect shifting alliances, betrayals, and brutal vendettas, as some prisoners band together for protection—only to turn on each other the moment freedom is within reach.

It’s an environment that naturally fosters exactly the kind of cutthroat MO2 gameplay that reds love.
It’s not just about grinding for release—it’s about climbing over the bodies of your fellow convicts to get there faster.

In short: The penal colony is a place where "esprit de corps (or corpse)" takes on a very literal meaning.

For Developers:​

✔ No more criminal status cheesing via NPC tasks.
✔ A structured, intuitive justice system that actually works.
✔ Prevention of exploits that keep resetting red status for free.

This isn’t just a punishment system—it’s a meaningful, immersive gameplay loop.
Instead of just waiting out a timer, reds must engage with the world—whether by making amends through restitution or struggling to regain freedom through labor.

And who knows?
Maybe a few hardened criminals will rethink their life choices after being forced to live as the gatherers they once preyed upon.

Or maybe, just maybe...
They'll plot their revenge the entire time. Either way, it's good gameplay.

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Preempting the "But SV Already Balanced It!" Argument​

Some might say:
"But grey status already expires in five minutes, and murder counts decay in eight hours! What more do you want? The system is balanced!"

To which we respond:
At the risk of repeating ourselves—the current system isn’t balanced—it’s just been given arbitrary numbers and called a day.

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Let’s Break This Down:​

Grey status lasts five minutes?
✔ Great! So criminals can commit a crime, go make a sandwich, and come back blue.
✔ And if you were their victim? Too bad—by the time you’re ready to fight back, they’re already "innocent" again.
✔ So what do you have to do? Break the law yourself just to get justice.

Murder counts decay over eight hours?
✔ That’s not punishment, that’s a temporary badge of honor for reds.
✔ If a player commits ten murders in an hour, does this mean they’re "rehabilitated" by bedtime?
✔ The whole idea that time erases crime is nonsensical.

Time-based justice is NOT real justice.

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Why the Restitution System is Superior:​

No arbitrary decay timers. Criminal status only disappears through restitution—either voluntarily (paying victims) or involuntarily (penal colony labor).
No crime-reset loopholes. Reds can no longer just AFK their way to redemption.
No more forcing victims to break the law for revenge. With a real justice system, they can actually claim compensation, rather than being forced into crime themselves.

Timers don’t fix the problem—they just delay it for a few minutes or hours.
The Restitution System actually SOLVES it.

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Final Takeaway ​

✔ No more five-minute get-out-of-jail-free timers.
✔ No more rep grinding to erase crimes.
✔ Justice is tied to real consequences, not arbitrary resets.
✔ Reds either pay restitution—or face exile.

This fixes the fundamental problem with crime in MO2—turning it from a trivial inconvenience into a meaningful system that makes playing both sides of the law actually fun.

Now SV just needs to wake up and do it.

 

[Smoldor]

what in the chatgpt