Carrying this over from another thread where it was distracting from the primary conversation:
Agreed. But these are separate skills than the split-second reactions required to counter an incoming blade on a bad ping. You don't need to be a particularly fast player to become absolutely phenomenal at any of these skills with the possible exception of accuracy. Which even then is a bit easier to master on a hitscan class. You're never going to fully remove reaction speed from the equation unless you make a game turn-based. Which nobody except pro-twitch trolls has advocated. But good battle comms and utility usage are absolutely something you can master with practice unless you have a severe handicap in terms of reaction speed. Perfect parries and counters are something many average people have as much chance of mastering as they do being a professional tackle for the NFL.
Disagreed. When I play Age of Empires 2, I have slow reactions I can't bounce all over the map and manage 3 different armies and multiple scouts with complex maneuvers while microing archers and managing an economy. I've come closer to these things by learning hotkeys and practicing proper build orders so that my main build doesn't require as much of my attention but there is a wall I'm going to hit well before I can ever contest someone like the Viper. That being said, since like 5th grade I've known every unit, what it counters, and what counters it. And to a certain degree this has allowed me to win in many matches against slightly faster opponents that aren't as good at building counters.
That is the difference between tactics and twitch. Chess is an an all tactics game. Magic The Gathering is all tactics and luck. A button that times your reaction from hearing a noise to pressing a button would be a pure twitch game. Age of Empires, Counterstrike, Darkfall, Mortal. They fall somewhere in between. Twitch and tactics are not the same things and I think some of the classes should rely far more on tactics than twitch.
I am not saying these roles such as tamer/dominator should be less twitchy than they were in MO1. I'm saying they should increase the tactical challenge, and make them comparable in power to a twitch role.
As to why that's good? Well, I play and enjoy AoE2 knowing I'll never be on the Viper's level. I'll also likely never play against the Viper. When I win matches my rank goes up, when I lose matches my rank goes down and I have roughly a 50% win rate 1v1 because their ranking system for 1v1s is pretty good. In an MMO, everyone fights everyone. It's good to have multiple methods you can use to advance and grow more powerful in the world because people who feel checked by a particular class's skillset feeling that only through that class can they advance as a player are likely not going to be people who stick with your game.
Thankfully in almost every MMO I have ever played, certain roles appeal to me when others do not because of the variety of skills roles allow. While others my disparage or praise certain classes I play for the most parts developers treat them equally and nerf them when they are too powerful or buff them when they are too weak with no regard to if it's a primarily twitch or tactics class. This is the way.
Agreed. But these are separate skills than the split-second reactions required to counter an incoming blade on a bad ping. You don't need to be a particularly fast player to become absolutely phenomenal at any of these skills with the possible exception of accuracy. Which even then is a bit easier to master on a hitscan class. You're never going to fully remove reaction speed from the equation unless you make a game turn-based. Which nobody except pro-twitch trolls has advocated. But good battle comms and utility usage are absolutely something you can master with practice unless you have a severe handicap in terms of reaction speed. Perfect parries and counters are something many average people have as much chance of mastering as they do being a professional tackle for the NFL.
Disagreed. When I play Age of Empires 2, I have slow reactions I can't bounce all over the map and manage 3 different armies and multiple scouts with complex maneuvers while microing archers and managing an economy. I've come closer to these things by learning hotkeys and practicing proper build orders so that my main build doesn't require as much of my attention but there is a wall I'm going to hit well before I can ever contest someone like the Viper. That being said, since like 5th grade I've known every unit, what it counters, and what counters it. And to a certain degree this has allowed me to win in many matches against slightly faster opponents that aren't as good at building counters.
That is the difference between tactics and twitch. Chess is an an all tactics game. Magic The Gathering is all tactics and luck. A button that times your reaction from hearing a noise to pressing a button would be a pure twitch game. Age of Empires, Counterstrike, Darkfall, Mortal. They fall somewhere in between. Twitch and tactics are not the same things and I think some of the classes should rely far more on tactics than twitch.
I am not saying these roles such as tamer/dominator should be less twitchy than they were in MO1. I'm saying they should increase the tactical challenge, and make them comparable in power to a twitch role.
As to why that's good? Well, I play and enjoy AoE2 knowing I'll never be on the Viper's level. I'll also likely never play against the Viper. When I win matches my rank goes up, when I lose matches my rank goes down and I have roughly a 50% win rate 1v1 because their ranking system for 1v1s is pretty good. In an MMO, everyone fights everyone. It's good to have multiple methods you can use to advance and grow more powerful in the world because people who feel checked by a particular class's skillset feeling that only through that class can they advance as a player are likely not going to be people who stick with your game.
Thankfully in almost every MMO I have ever played, certain roles appeal to me when others do not because of the variety of skills roles allow. While others my disparage or praise certain classes I play for the most parts developers treat them equally and nerf them when they are too powerful or buff them when they are too weak with no regard to if it's a primarily twitch or tactics class. This is the way.
