[POLL] mastery system progression

[Sabella]

I am kind a happy for SV they found a way to open up the game some more with the mastery system.

From the first look at the new mastery system the differences in power between new players and players with more playtime are going to be more severe. The system means not that they can beat the longer playing but maybe worst players. Because progress in this system is done by pve.
But i hope it will not be like that.

Progress in a character finalizing system (here: Mastery system) in a hardcore full loot pvp game should be done by pvp only. Not by pve.
There is no encouragement for the players to go pvp and with such a system (pve leveling), the game becomes softer. Softcore.

And SV could do that with the faction system. E.g.: player (tindreme) gets a kill task for 5 players (khurite). Finishing the kill task
gives progress in the mastery system. There are no murdercounts in this case because Tindrem and Khurite faction are at war.

Please vote.

 

[Sabella]

Wild, i invited you and instead of go here and talk, you decided to push your false narratives on other platforms, on the issue.
Looking at you Speznat and Emdash.

@Speznat: it is not about the length of the grind. It is about how you obtain the levels! Skill-based game? Do you know what a base is?
E.g.: if so, we would have some kind of pvp arena for low level players can fight instead of sending them to pve only. Train and compete.
Like Guild Wars had or WoW has. I hear people demanding it for a long time? Guess what: one more for the long list.
How do you spot a skill-based game? Well, people compete all the time, 24/7 not just occasionaly!

@Emdash: Everyone is free to use "Read Aloud: A Text to Speech Voice Reader" add on for the browser. So a wall of text is not a thing,
a bot reads it to you. Yes, very helpful and welcome to 2024.
Not helpful is chasing bad examples in general, for a argument you are going to press when a contradicting, valid one is there, already.
Like, how hard is it to f* smth. up VS. how hard is it to make smth. work? I am talking about the cc in BDO example. Makes no sense at all,
next time a coffee and a donut first then go post. tyvm!

There was enough time to put some talking points forward here, on the topic, my Lords. But you shady duo decided to dodge and cope elsewhere -
that brings nothing to the table. Rude and no beef on the bone.

So? So i sit here with my buddy the pvper, the only brave soul that voted so far. And now we are going into some details,
adressing the leveling, with or without you...

 

[Sabella]

Astonishing you other people visiting are shy to vote. So let us help you out with that a lil bit:

Early game you grind claide to get the char up to a playable level and you do that doing pve, ok.
Mid game you look for a guild and build up structures, craft and you get that glory and mats with tasks and pve mostly, annoying but ok i guess?
Late game pve to progress with the char finalization system too? No way! You must be kidding!

And when you mastered the mastery system, what kind of master are you?
You will be the skill-full master of pve! Congratulations!

It looks like a pattern to us, it looks like the players should go do 95% pve with some occasional pvp at the hot spots.
Are you OK with that? That is not the reason why we play a multiplayer game that has hardcore-full-loot label on it. You?

And point me to the frontier please - because I can't find it. I guess the frontier is supposed to be where the guilds live and have neighbors
to fight over territory. But that works for the guild, only there - i have no business in this fight. So I look from far and waving and
be happy that they have such a nice war going on to fight. Yay!

Pve, do not get me wrong, i like me some good pve. But that's not what we have. I am sorry if it hurts anyone's feelings.
Meaning: when the pve is so bad the last thing you want to do is point the players to more pve.

IF SV rly wants to do that, then they have to increase the quality and quantity of pve drastically and the game mechanics, first.
300% more static mob spawns, variations, different difficulties, mechanics that make the mobs work together and so on.
Not pve direct from the unreal engine. Fun, scary mobs is what i am talking about. The game does not have that, respectively it is "balanced"
more like bent around high physical armor players.

"mo will never be like wow power differences". This is good! I get it! We know! But you are missing the point.
That is not helpful at all. And that is not what all this is about @Heinrich. It is about this:

Here a example where a game has gone pvp leveling with its char finalization system:
The frontier daoc, the MO2 devs would call it a "theme park", has it. How can MO2 become softer than this "theme park" now?
When we hammer the theme park games for their softness for over 2 years straight?
But unfortunately, that is exactly what will happen if there is no recourse. This pve grind for the endgame does not compute with the hardcore character of MO2.

Anyway, why do i go back to daoc?
It is only fair to SV, to talk about a game that was there already, when Heinrich started with a blank sheet of paper back in the day.
They could have done their homework and taken a close look at it, but they didn't. Obviously. He said he played daoc - yeah pff.
Highly questionable if one of them was higher than RR6 in daoc, you never saw daoc endgame. Heinrich, sad.
But all fun aside: we have group objectives, so we have group play and siege mechanics, and the standard for both is NOT UO.
That's why i go back to a working game that had both.

How could "we" miss the fact that you introducing next boring grind mechanic sending everyone in pve hell, again?
Especially for the players doing the endgame content. Not possible. Only a blueberry would do that. That's my 2 cent.

Multiplayer games offer endgame pvp, no matter if theme park, arena or sandbox - in UO, in GW, in daoc and many other mmos - not in MO2.
In MO2 endgame is pve. But you can vote here with us and reject that.

Crafters/RPers: In MO2 the mage is a parry god until, get peels but does not even use melee.
While the crafter or real player, does also not use melee either, but is full excluded. Ooh Jaa! You are wrong.
Everyone has to bow to the endgame, even crafters. The crafters participate massively from this, to exclude them makes no sense.

You realize that what you came here for is rare in the game anymore, pvp. Because if so, you could very well level it with doing pvp.
And that is the true and sad reason why only one pvper dares to vote here, i guess? The rest protect your view on the endgame. For what price?
But we can change it, answer the call and vote for pvp leveling in the mastery system!

@Heinrich:
If you copy pve kill tasks from daoc, a good thing, then realize: the npc gives you tasks only up to a certain level, a lower level. Not endgame!

 

[Speznat]

I get the point. That is what I ment. tha tthe gap will get wieder, Normally we should have the tindrem arena. where people can insta go in and out and train PVP all day with other people. ANd maybe can also collect glory pooints form pvp there. That would solve alot of the issue.BUt sadly arena is far away i guess. But i think it should be PVP and PVE. be possible with arena this could be achieved.

 

[Xunila]

But there are PvE players in the game and you tell them to leave?

 

[Xunila]

I can't vote in your poll because the option "both pvp and pve" is missing. And I don't know if StarVault could avoid abusing a pvp system: Simply "fight" between characters of your own two accounts,

 

[MortalEnjoyer42069]

I voted PvE as I believe the system needs to be open to all players. There are some players that cannot compete in PvP and removing a portion of the game from them to experience is not inclusive gameplay and will drive players away from the new system and ultimately the game.

 

[Midas]

obtaining the points in pvp would be gamebreaking just like it was for the "bounty hunting" update. players will put their second accounts in a guild they made for all of their guildmates and farm their alts for points PvE is the only way.

 

[Xenom]

Pve is basically also pvp as you never know what happens. Also this is not a pvp only game but a sandbox with pvp.

 

[Sabella]

Thank you for your participation.

@Xunila
It was intend to have no 3rd option on "both pvp and pve" in the vote, that was the whole point of the poll.
Nobody wants anyone to leave. BUT we demand improvement and a ongoing war with the faction system.
That is in the moment a reputation-holding-system, instead of providing an ongoing conflict everybody could be part of / level in.

Why do you need a maxed out char when you just do some pve, mmh? I bet you are a much better pvp player that you think you are.
You just need to get rid of this pve virus! Hell knows where this comes from!

@Xenom
To describe MO2 as a sandbox with pvp is the most bare description. The pve mobs are full lootable, are they not ?

For the record: the patch has gone live with pve leveling to progress in the mastery system.
Just like the majority of votes went, sadly the representation is insignificant due to the tiny sample size.

 

[Sabella]

This patch has gone live with pve leveling to progress in the mastery system, resulting in:
-> It does improve the skills minimal at best. You all talk about a skill based game, so it does not necessary
improve the skills of the players on a level that it is usefull for pvp. When you reached lvl 20 claid
you had enough pve to reach that point of your gameplay already. More pve from save spots will not improve your skills.

(Example: Guild Wars had the option to jump to level 20 on creation of a new one, IF you had one level 20 char already.
So you can create your char and streight jump in pvp, without the grind. To skip the char-grind-part for a good chunk was
possible and a good option. I duno if that is a option in MO2 also.)

-> People sitting all day in the dungeon mass farming mobs from save spots getting oversleept.
It is repettitive and to use save spots is cheesy at best (exploiting->unfair advantage-> bannable).
Do players get banned for exploiting save spots? On the contrarry they produce YT vids.
Violating most basic rules of fairness. If i can see that, new players can see that too.

Day 2 has it, players with 70 mastery level and more, while "the grind will keep you in the game for a long time".
It looks like the grind is finished in 2-3 month for most of the active players.

Is that any different to players logging their alts and farming themselfs? Not much, i would argue it is far more easy
to detect and you can autoban people doing it. Like SV could detect and autoban people farming from savespots too.
With some efford.

How much gain in gold/claide xp/etc. per player and day is legit and goes without review?
Set a limit, auto put player chars on a list that are over that limit and review them. And then warn/ban the players,
if you think they are progressing too fast or in a way that is not intended. Or fix the game depending on what you have to deal with.

Anyway, i stand by it: this would not have happened when you need to do pvp to level it.

How about the argument of "keeping new players"? Let's have a look: the no-lifers grind the mastery level to max.
and then the new players face a even greater gap between them and those players, in the field.
It does not look like to me that this fits within your reasoning, to keep new players.
It looks like it has the exact contradicting effects on new players. Even to active pvp players, a punishment.

You did not vote for what is best for the game, the people that voted for pve i mean.
You voted for what is best for you. For what is so - that you do not need to change, right?
And by doing that, you not only remove the chance to improve significantly, but to do it with achievement that has a meaning.

But the game is to blame for that also, offering close to no group synergies and tools to support/coordinate/share.
With this, i can see why it would create a harder entry and make people feel excluded and that is not on any player. Point for you.
To make it even more complicated: the lack of tools has nothing to do with hardcore or sandbox. It is what it is, the lack of tools.

But to play MO2 and then say: "Oh, let's go softcore to keep new players in the game" just to make it easy mode for you
is egotistical and not very nice of you. And it does achieve nothing!

If SV repairs the playstyles - instead meme on them - it could have a 3 times larger player base.
If SV "just" repairs a lot of bugs it may end up with 2x the playerbase.

There are better ways to grow the player base than making the game softcore, removing the opportunity to improve the players skills
and pvp across the board, in the process. Also, throwing time at the game alone, can not preserve the niche, hardcore character of MO2.

On top i presented a example a working one in form of daoc. But nobody cares right? Just words, haha! And "you think" it is better,
that is your argument so far. Are you serious?

You say: "It needs to be more accessible, so MO2 is not a niche game and not hardcore anymore."
(And also, but you do not say that out loud: "That way it is more easy for you and you do not have to change / put real efford in.")

Is MO2 not going to be advertised as a hardcore, niche game in the future? I have no clue.

...
Thx for your answers but not happy with your arguments, like .. at all.
The way i see it: no valid arguments to do it the way it has been done. Looking at the game in front of us - a hardcore full loot,
niche game that a lot of players try just for a while and then they just leave the game. Excuse my bad english,
i mean: they Alt+F4 out of the game for ever.

While the whole point is: the players stay for a long time and pay monthly subscription, that ensures financial stability and further development.

 

[Rahz]

I didnt vote coz I honestly dont know. You made the point as to why it's hard to decide pretty clear. Its dumb to do it in PvE coz its unfun. The problem is PvP in MO2 is also unfun 90% of the time. Making the Mastery level in PvP would probably lead to 20 MAs just outside city guard ranges making learning the game almost impossible. People around starting cities would have like 40 Mastery levels and would be able to level on players who arent even cladelevel 20 yet. The whole mastery system seems to be slapped on top of an already really unbalanced experience (in both PvE and PvP). There is just no way for newer players to fight a group of people with dmg trinkets and masterylevels and it will just lead to a longer grind to be able to compete.
If the Mastery points werent that strong, it could be better but as it stands now you get A LOT OF DMG especially for killing horses and heavily armored players get even more damage reduction making the power differences from gear/clades/mastery alone between newer players and veterans much too large for newer players to compete. Its like fighting a Pro Boxer while you get gloves and he gets a hammer.

 

[Sabella]

There are some players that cannot compete in PvP and removing a portion of the game from them to experience is not inclusive gameplay and will drive players away from the new system and ultimately the game.

I have to disagree. Yes, handicapped people also play games and deserve everything a game can offer to them. But for a handicapped person to pick a game like MO2 is odd to say it at least. The controls are complicated to set up, let alone to play. But maybe i am wrong and people are different than i think. Maybe handicaped people want to be treated like everyone else - in MO2's case: get griefd like everyone else. But no matter if it supports my argument, it's not the point and please don't do that again.

You try to argue: due to "inclusive gameplay" some minority requirements should be enforced onto the whole player base of MO2, the majority -
and therefore, it should change the experience of everyone. That follows not even your own logic and will drive players away.

obtaining the points in pvp would be gamebreaking just like it was for the "bounty hunting" update.

The BH system is incomplete. So what? I support 100%: repair bounty hunting. And add head contracts for red players too.
But here "we" try to talk the leveling in the mastery system into "not been broken" but failing at the moment.

And the only argument "we" allow so far is: missing systems making entry harder. E.g.: you can not form a group to share points.
That is not much! Looking at all the other arguments against pve leveling.

There is just no way for newer players to fight a group of people with dmg trinkets and masterylevels and it will just lead to a longer grind to be able to compete.

Good point. And it will stay like that until the game offers something more interesting than killing noobs. So far MO2 has failed to offer
an ongoing conflict with TC or faction system and that is the way players tell SV that they do not "like that". The players demand pvp.
Not a mastery system issue.

Its like fighting a Pro Boxer while you get gloves and he gets a hammer.

Standing at the bank and get one hit killed from behind, it does not matter if the dmg is 190 or 265.

What matters is Heinrich keeping promises he made:
We did ask for a blade turn spell, a spell that can remove the first melee hit. Like Magic Reflect does for most spells.
Why is this spell not in the game still? I say, this is gamebreaking. That is one reason why players leave.
It is flat out unfair and there is no fix after a long time, promises only. Meanwhile, it f*s up mages all day every day.

@SV
The task system is a fantastic addition. The players love it! Is it a "magic wand" for everything? No it's not!
Please address the arguments here about the hardcore, niche game becoming softcore and more imballanced.

 

[Rahz]

Standing at the bank and get one hit killed from behind, it does not matter if the dmg is 190 or 265.

What matters is Heinrich keeping promises he made:
We did ask for a blade turn spell, a spell that can remove the first melee hit. Like Magic Reflect does for most spells.
Why is this spell not in the game still? I say, this is gamebreaking. That is one reason why players leave.
It is flat out unfair and there is no fix after a long time, promises only. Meanwhile, it f*s up mages all day every day.

Bank bombing is one thing. For me the difference between 190 and 265 is just how far my head flies, but for others it might be significant. Its still bullshit tho...265dmg, so thats why normal humans in dungeons have like 1000hp lol (btw immersion breaking as hell) Thing is hybrids for example cant fulfill any role now as their oppontents are too tanky to be bursted down with 150mana and too OP in melee to go for it. Either be a zerg hugging fatty or one of two footie flavors, both with heavy armor. Thats the options you have.

A blade turn spell would be nice since people hit you from 10m away coz of potential ping issues. If the game were running smoothly it wouldnt be needed and i think SV is delusional enough to think that "ping normalization" will fix the problem. (it wont, it will just continue to make people mad)

To TC and the frustration leading to mass-griefing of new players: Sorry but i gotta say it: These dudes need to touch some grass. This is so immature, it could actually be funny if it werent that sad.
Everyone of them is right tho when saying that TC needs changes. BIG changes. TC as is lead to the whole world becoming a safe space for zergs and a gauntlet for everyone else. The only point of TC atm is "getting a safe spot in dangerous areas" which doesnt work in a "persistent world" since over time everything will be camped.
Guilds should be able to build a town somewhere,yes. But not 20 of them all over the map, one in every territory they have some discord contact to.
" Not your territory"when in a guild should mean "You cant build here" and as a solo it should mean "you better pay your taxes, son". TC should give you taxes from players living there, its a good dynamic and would lead to veterans guarding noobs from bandit-guilds.
Keeps need ressources like Mines, farms and better than usual fishing spots+ the ability to build a city behind walls, as of now its just a city behind walls. No build areas also need to be expanded. Building your guild village 1minute from a major dungeon then selling access over discord is bad gameplay and unimmersive.
Also since you sliced Bounty Hunting a little: Why do we need birds to find criminals? They literally have their names spelled in red. The birds should imo be assassination- tools to find nearby bounty hunters. (vendors in Kranesh, cave camp, GK and the sewers could hand them to you) Your bounty itself should be determined by the amount of crime you commit (your murdercounts) and thats it. People will try to get your bounty as a criminal, so youll have constant PvP. And the birds would lead criminals to people who are geared, worthy opponents that actually wanna fight.

 

[Xenom]

Well you want the game more hardcore and niche as it is which even tho the small numbers in these forums tell you it's a bad idea and you keep pushing for it.

It's your opinion and that's all good but still mortal is a sandbox and tons of ppl see pvp like this: nice to play in an environment where there is danger but do not actively play for pvp only.

Henrik himself stated himself he wants MO to be more of a sandbox and as it has been proven over and over in games like this: noone number wise wants to play a game where it's all about let's make it the so only pvp ppl want to play... It ends up with a handful of people playing. I don't want MO to end like that and would push way more for it than Henrik does to make it a sandbox vs the gank box it still is. But just keep pushing for make it more hardcore and end up with the handful enjoying games like this.

 

[Sabella]

To TC and the frustration

If you call something "control", then you should give control in some kind of form. Control the npcs in the next city as supposed to,
white list guilds that can access the city, adjust vendor prices, etc.. That is not the case - a Keep owner guild controls none of this in MO2 rn.
Guilds not fight for city control is a huge, enduring disappointment.
Like you said: there is so much wrong about the base game, BH and TC talk is kinda off topic..so let's stop here.

.. but still mortal is a sandbox and tons of ppl see pvp like this: nice to play in an environment where there is danger but do not actively play for pvp only.

Henrik himself stated himself he wants MO to be more of a sandbox and as it has been proven over and over in games like this: noone number wise wants to play a game where it's all about let's make it the so only pvp ppl want to play...

Fine! Look, we on the same page: sandbox yes, gankbox no and more players. That's nothing new.
Risk on me if i answer, i may end up losing my forum account. Very nice!

Gankbox, why are people in steel e.g.: on the graveyard, ganking? Belive it or not: there is no interesting active conflict going on,
the players can otherwise participate in. Boredom. These people are bored af! (A part from some few psychopaths or recruiters of cause.)
There are no area or playerbound rules to prevent that either. More POIs on the other hand did help a lil bit.

Sandbox does not mean no rules, it has minimal rules. E.g.: working TC does not align with minimal goals or the maximal freedom
character of a sandbox. If you don't believe me, you can talk to the "BRO" alliance about that.
But that's ok, in fact i like it! Different requirements come with that TC change and MO2 has not decided what kind of game it is yet, i guess.

Ways for players to express creativity and freedom are core pillars of sandbox games.
Just look at the way we kill each other, doing direct damage most of the time only. How boring is that? Where is the creativity in that?
Where is postbox on the house, so i can leave my neighbor a postit for "when it's tee time, she better bring cookies"? Where is that freedom?

It's not there because there are close to no tools that support this kind of gameplay. Most systems support fighting directly or indirectly, exclusively.
Can you craft a mob/fish trophy for your house decoration? No, you can't. You have scales, food, ingredients for potions aaaand we're back to fighting.

Gobbeling up raw fish instead of cooking it with the skills/tools/lore and rename it to make a fortune with your secret recipe as suppost to?
It's not working and not a thing, not a priority to fix this sandboxy mechanic. Now, somehow, the lack of these kind of sandbox elements
is welcome to justify the game going softcore? Please.

What do you think makes a RP player leave the game in the long run (subscription):
a) getting flopped from time to time, on a not maxed out char, losing 26 campfires, 205 roses and 5 torches in the process?
or b) having close to no tools to RP?

So, back to your argument about sandbox: I can not see that, I'm sorry. If Heinrich wants to prove that MO2 is a sandbox, he has to
come up with better working and more tools. You can not call it a sandbox just because of one mechanic, fishing. Until that becomes reality,
i refuse to accept this sandbox argument of yours entirely. BS. And don't take it from me! Take it from Wiki:

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandbox_game

[..] There are "a lot of varieties" of sandbox design, based on "a wide range of dynamic interactive elements".[2] Thus, the term is used often, without a strict definition.[4] Game designers sometimes define a sandbox as what it is not, where a game can "subtract the missions, the main campaign, the narrative or whatever formatively binds the game's progression, and you have a sandbox."[2]