Combat Suggestions [Feedback]

[Handsome Young Man]

Alright. Going to make an open-minded, compromising post.

Players seem somewhat split on the combat. Some people say it's 40% for it, 60% against it.. others 40% against it, 60% for it.

Personally I see it as 25% for it, and 75% against it.

Regardless, I'm willing to step to those of you who support the combat and present some potential ideas that I might of presented in the past as a way to quell our issues with the combat instead of saying "make combat faster" even though that would fix most of our problems.

1.) If you miss a swing, the delay to start another swing should be longer which encourages good footwork. Right now the delay is small, and almost easily avoided. Especially considering most people now swing at the ground to make their swings come out faster if they know they're going to miss their first swing. If someone now misses, they can be punished.

2.) Push should guard break for a small amount of time. Nothing crazy. At most like half a second. This will allow players in groups to coordinate. "You push him to guard break, I'll hit him." The way to prevent this from being zerg friendly? Set an internal cooldown timer on people affected by it. Make it like a 30 second timer which prevents it from happening again.

3.) Idea 2, but instead with a shield; which increases the guard break time from half a second to a full second to a second and a half. Internal timer on this would be a minute longer to balance the strength of it. Also makes shields more useful, and would get rid of the weird momentum bash. (Or just keep the momentum bush + guard breaking? Would be counter intuitive but yeah.)

4.) Add chip damage in for weapons. Blunt-heavy weapons should do chip damage, with blunt-medium weapons doing some chip damage, and blunt-light weapons doing little to no chip damage. Bladed weapons (Swords) or pointed (Spears) should do not chip damage. This makes blunt weapons useful, as opposed to right now where they suck and are supper gimmicky. To simplify this.

Two Handed & One Handed Hammers = Blunt Heavy
Two Handed & One Handed Axes = Blunt Medium
Spears = No Blunt
Poleaxes = Blunt Light
Poleswords = No Blunt
Swords = No Blunt
Daggers = No Blunt

5.) Parry arc should be FINELY TUNED downward, so going around parries becomes a thing again. It shouldn't happen every time someone runs around you, but people who don't follow the weapon should take blocked / full damage.

6.) Add more stamina / increase stamina regen. Stamina is shit in this game, feels like it runs out way too quick and regens way too slow.

Those are my ideas that don't consist of "make combat faster."

What do you guys think?

 

[Eldrath]

2. and 3. will make 1vX basically impossible.

4. Makes the game even more zerg friendly.

The rest are good.

 

[Handsome Young Man]

2. and 3. will make 1vX basically impossible.

4. Makes the game even more zerg friendly.

The rest are good.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Ori]

Let me cast mana to stamina. Thanks.

 

[Valoran]

I agree with increasing the miss penalty time.

Regarding the stamina, many people are playing in full sets of metal plate armor which has severe stamina regeneration penalties and incentivizes playing with lighter armor, so don't forget to take that into account.

People are also terrible at managing their stamina and tend to just waste all of it then stand there regenerating and complain instead of finely managing it the whole time. The only way to prevent these complaints would be to add so much regeneration that no one ever runs out, which is obviously not a good idea.

 

[Eldrath]

I agree with increasing the miss penalty time.

Regarding the stamina, many people are playing in full sets of metal plate armor which has severe stamina regeneration penalties and incentivizes playing with lighter armor, so don't forget to take that into account.

People are also terrible at managing their stamina and tend to just waste all of it then stand there regenerating and complain instead of finely managing it the whole time. The only way to prevent these complaints would be to add so much regeneration that no one ever runs out, which is obviously not a good idea.

Why do you assume ignorance? I think a lot of the players giving feedback here are actually aware of the stamina penalties and can take it into account when giving feedback. You could also provide some insight into stamina management by showing us your superior skills in a video. Since "people" apparently suck at the game you must know how to do it better. A 1v2 or 1v3 would suffice.


On stamina:
The problem is the amount of stamina it costs to attack compared to the amount it costs to defend. Initiating a swing (with a average weapon like a katana) costs about as much as putting up a block, but the regenerations while charging is lower than when holding a block. Thus the attacker ends up with less stamina than the defender. Over prolonged fight this is very noticeable.

The problem is that the defender has a much easier time getting an advantage than the attacker because it is extremely difficult to get around a parry. Getting a back hit for example usually requires sprinting or even jumping (same for morphing animations, feinting etc.) making the stamina gap even bigger.

This is part of reason why even with way superior skills it is extremely hard to win a 1vX. You will simply run out of stamina once you switch to offense to kill someone. Unless they don´t know how directional blocking works.

Personally I think that they should
A. increase stamina regeneration slightly across the board and remove the threshold that they currently have, but go steadly up from 5 to 40kg of armorweight.
B. Half the cost of initiating a swing, or the cost of keeping it drawn.

 

[Handsome Young Man]

I agree with increasing the miss penalty time.

Regarding the stamina, many people are playing in full sets of metal plate armor which has severe stamina regeneration penalties and incentivizes playing with lighter armor, so don't forget to take that into account.

People are also terrible at managing their stamina and tend to just waste all of it then stand there regenerating and complain instead of finely managing it the whole time. The only way to prevent these complaints would be to add so much regeneration that no one ever runs out, which is obviously not a good idea.

I think it could use a buff, and this comes from someone who played MO1 and had pretty top-notch stam management. I suppose the point of heavier armors can be made, has anyone actually done the math yet of where it starts, the fall off, and where it potentially caps out at?

 

[Valoran]

I think it could use a buff, and this comes from someone who played MO1 and had pretty top-notch stam management. I suppose the point of heavier armors can be made, has anyone actually done the math yet of where it starts, the fall off, and where it potentially caps out at?

If it is using the same system as MO1, the stamina penalty threshold starts at 14.0kg of armor weight, however your threshold increases by 0.25kg for every 1.0kg of maximum armor weight you have above 14kg.

So in MO1 If you had 100 heavy armor training as a Thur/Khur/Sid, you would have 26.6kg of maximum weight before encountering a stamina penalty.

26.6 - 14 = 12.6
12.6 x 0.25 = 3.15
14 + 3.15 = 17.15

Therefore your free armor weight before encountering any stamina penalty would be 17.15kg

However this threshold depends on your characters specific strength and constitution, so we can't determine an exact value without manually testing, as we do not currently have decimal numbers for our armor weight.

 

[Handsome Young Man]

If it is using the same system as MO1, the stamina penalty threshold starts at 14.0kg of armor weight, however your threshold increases by 0.25kg for every 1.0kg of maximum armor weight you have above 14kg.

So in MO1 If you had 100 heavy armor training as a Thur/Khur/Sid, you would have 26.6kg of maximum weight before encountering a stamina penalty.

26.6 - 14 = 12.6
12.6 x 0.25 = 3.15
14 + 3.15 = 17.15

Therefore your free armor weight before encountering any stamina penalty would be 17.15kg

However this threshold depends on your characters specific strength and constitution, so we can't determine an exact value without manually testing, as we do not currently have decimal numbers for our armor weight.

Worth testing in-game to see a difference.

Or having some SV input on this to make it easier.

 

[Valoran]

Why do you assume ignorance? I think a lot of the players giving feedback here are actually aware of the stamina penalties and can take it into account when giving feedback. You could also provide some insight into stamina management by showing us your superior skills in a video. Since "people" apparently suck at the game you must know how to do it better. A 1v2 or 1v3 would suffice.


On stamina:
The problem is the amount of stamina it costs to attack compared to the amount it costs to defend. Initiating a swing (with a average weapon like a katana) costs about as much as putting up a block, but the regenerations while charging is lower than when holding a block. Thus the attacker ends up with less stamina than the defender. Over prolonged fight this is very noticeable.

The problem is that the defender has a much easier time getting an advantage than the attacker because it is extremely difficult to get around a parry. Getting a back hit for example usually requires sprinting or even jumping (same for morphing animations, feinting etc.) making the stamina gap even bigger.

This is part of reason why even with way superior skills it is extremely hard to win a 1vX. You will simply run out of stamina once you switch to offense to kill someone. Unless they don´t know how directional blocking works.

Personally I think that they should
A. increase stamina regeneration slightly across the board and remove the threshold that they currently have, but go steadly up from 5 to 40kg of armorweight.
B. Half the cost of initiating a swing, or the cost of keeping it drawn.

I assume ignorance because I see ignorance in basically every video of a real fight posted so far in the alpha, as well as MO1 for that matter.

One of the most important crucial things you can do to better manage stamina is to stand still as much as possible, whereas most people tend to walk in combat mode constantly, even when not necessary as well as doing things like holding swings charged when they don't need to.

Stamina management isn't hard, but you can't just pretend it's not part of the game and play as if it doesn't matter.

 

[ElPerro]

I agree with increasing the miss penalty time.

Regarding the stamina, many people are playing in full sets of metal plate armor which has severe stamina regeneration penalties and incentivizes playing with lighter armor, so don't forget to take that into account.

People are also terrible at managing their stamina and tend to just waste all of it then stand there regenerating and complain instead of finely managing it the whole time. The only way to prevent these complaints would be to add so much regeneration that no one ever runs out, which is obviously not a good idea.

A big problem with stam imo is the stam damage you get when being hit, even from fast low dmg hits, making fighting 1vX harder than it needs to be. Even if you can parry multiple ppl attacking you, a few hits are bound to get thru that drain your stamina so it gets harder to reset as the fight goes on.

 

[Eldrath]

I assume ignorance because I see ignorance in basically every video of a real fight posted so far in the alpha, as well as MO1 for that matter.

One of the most important crucial things you can do to better manage stamina is to stand still as much as possible, whereas most people tend to walk in combat mode constantly, even when not necessary as well as doing things like holding swings charged when they don't need to.

Stamina management isn't hard, but you can't just pretend it's not part of the game and play as if it doesn't matter.

Yeah ... I´m not buying it. If you have the secret to stamina management it should not be hard to provide me with some evidence.

At this point you just remind me of someone watching football and telling everyone about how you would have hit that goal.

 

[Valoran]

Yeah ... I´m not buying it. If you have the secret to stamina management it should not be hard to provide me with some evidence.

At this point you just remind me of someone watching football and telling everyone about how you would have hit that goal.

I don't spend my time making highlight reels of myself to stroke my own ego.

Also to use your football analogy, remember that loads of world class coaches have been overweight and couldn't run more than 10 meters without falling over, yet they understand the game perfectly and can devise tactics and plans.

The argument that only a professional MO player can talk about something as simple as stamina management doesn't really hold up here.

 

[Teknique]

I don't spend my time making highlight reels of myself to stroke my own ego.

Publicly traded companies shouldn't release their financials to stroke their own egos.

Just invest in them anyway and take their word for it.

Studies shouldn't release their methods either to flex their math egos.

We don't want to know the validity of their study its really just a way of them showing how much smarter they are then us.

This is why we prefer Alex Jones.

 

[Dracu]

I like 1 and 6
For the guard break, a push is i think a bit to fast to react to

 

[Eldrath]

I don't spend my time making highlight reels of myself to stroke my own ego.

Also to use your football analogy, remember that loads of world class coaches have been overweight and couldn't run more than 10 meters without falling over, yet they understand the game perfectly and can devise tactics and plans.

The argument that only a professional MO player can talk about something as simple as stamina management doesn't really hold up here.

Nearly all the coaches used to be professional football players, which is part of the reason why they are effective at what they do. They understand the game and tactics because they have played, they know the limits of the human body, they know how the mentality of the players work etc.

You don´t have any ground to stand on since you refuse to show evidence of this better way of managing stamina.

If it is really about you being so humble (which is ironic, when you are hear claiming that you know better than everybody else) then maybe you can find a video by another person? Or is it just you who understands something as simple as stamina management?

You came in here insulting players by claiming that "people are terrible at managing their stamina" and that is why they are "complaining" as a way to dismiss our arguments. I´m merely asking for you to back up your claim and lend any strength to your argument.

If you don´t do that you remain just a well-spoken troll making unsubstantiated claims.

 

[Valoran]

Nearly all the coaches used to be professional football players, which is part of the reason why they are effective at what they do. They understand the game and tactics because they have played, they know the limits of the human body, they know how the mentality of the players work etc.

You don´t have any ground to stand on since you refuse to show evidence of this better way of managing stamina.

If it is really about you being so humble (which is ironic, when you are hear claiming that you know better than everybody else) then maybe you can find a video by another person? Or is it just you who understands something as simple as stamina management?

You came in here insulting players by claiming that "people are terrible at managing their stamina" and that is why they are "complaining" as a way to dismiss our arguments. I´m merely asking for you to back up your claim and lend any strength to your argument.

If you don´t do that you remain just a well-spoken troll making unsubstantiated claims.

Yes and in this very accurate analogy, I played MO1 for almost 10 years and given that we are currently playing a near identical version of that stamina system I think I can safely say I know how it works.

I already gave you specific examples of things that people do and don't do as reference to what i'm talking about, you're the one acting as if i'm pretending to be some kind of guru who knows the lost secrets of stamina management. I'm not.

The fact that most people can't manage their stamina properly is one of the longest running jokes and problems in this community. In MO1 stamming out and dying is the most common cause of death in a large fight is it not?

If for whatever reason you suspect i'm lying, then simply put what i'm saying into practice the next time you're in one of the large group fights, I don't want you to take my word for it.

Asking for more stamina and higher stamina regeneration is not an uncontestable statement and is subject to questioning.

A change like this has some pretty significant gameplay ramifications too. If we simply increase stamina management to the point where the average player who plays as if stamina doesn't exist, can play just fine without worrying about it, you devalue the game knowledge and skill of the people already successfully managing their stamina and thus lower the skill ceiling which is what so many people are always worried about isn't it?

Just because someone asks for something to change and I come along and ask a few questions and offer advise, doesn't mean i'm suddenly the bad guy.

 

[Rorry]

If it didn't take so long to kill someone I don't think we would need more stamina. I really dislike the stam drain from being hit, as well. It seems to unnecessarily favor a larger group and makes kiting more difficult (even though now kiting is OP, I doubt it will stay that way.)

A word about option 1. Not every miss is due to a lack of skill, sometimes I want to turn away rather than give someone a parry after I already released my swing (because swings are soooo slow) and I dislike the hitting the ground method as it seems cheesy. Right now the penalty is no penalty most of the time because it doesn't last long. It would be bad if it were longer. In short, it punishes more than just mistakes.

 

[Eldrath]

Yes and in this very accurate analogy, I played MO1 for almost 10 years and given that we are currently playing a near identical version of that stamina system I think I can safely say I know how it works.

I already gave you specific examples of things that people do and don't do as reference to what i'm talking about, you're the one acting as if i'm pretending to be some kind of guru who knows the lost secrets of stamina management. I'm not.

The fact that most people can't manage their stamina properly is one of the longest running jokes and problems in this community. In MO1 stamming out and dying is the most common cause of death in a large fight is it not?

If for whatever reason you suspect i'm lying, then simply put what i'm saying into practice the next time you're in one of the large group fights, I don't want you to take my word for it.

Asking for more stamina and higher stamina regeneration is not an uncontestable statement and is subject to questioning.

A change like this has some pretty significant gameplay ramifications too. If we simply increase stamina management to the point where the average player who plays as if stamina doesn't exist, can play just fine without worrying about it, you devalue the game knowledge and skill of the people already successfully managing their stamina and thus lower the skill ceiling which is what so many people are always worried about isn't it?

Just because someone asks for something to change and I come along and ask a few questions and offer advise, doesn't mean i'm suddenly the bad guy.

As I have stated, you are "bad" for not arguing the point but claiming that there is no problem, because it is just scrubs being shit at the game.

Playing the game for any amount of time does not show anything. There is tons of people who have played since beta and don´t know shit.

Stamina in MO1 was different, worked differently etc. The amount of stamina needed to kill someone was less. You had chipping damage. I could go on. I´m talking about MO2, where I actually have a few days worth of experience fighting 1vX on multiple occasions with the current patch.

I made very specific suggestions that a far from you hyperbole "playing as if stamina does not exist".

Constantly walking can be a bad habit, or is necessary to keep the pressure up (or you know, actually cause damage if someone does not refresh). Having swings uselessly charge is not something I see in videos from any competent player. So those two are not really an issue.

The fact remains that stamina is currently in a place where it piles another advantage onto playing defensive and outnumbering. Both of which already have inherent advantages.

 

[Handsome Young Man]

Yes and in this very accurate analogy, I played MO1 for almost 10 years and given that we are currently playing a near identical version of that stamina system I think I can safely say I know how it works.

I already gave you specific examples of things that people do and don't do as reference to what i'm talking about, you're the one acting as if i'm pretending to be some kind of guru who knows the lost secrets of stamina management. I'm not.

The fact that most people can't manage their stamina properly is one of the longest running jokes and problems in this community. In MO1 stamming out and dying is the most common cause of death in a large fight is it not?

If for whatever reason you suspect i'm lying, then simply put what i'm saying into practice the next time you're in one of the large group fights, I don't want you to take my word for it.

Asking for more stamina and higher stamina regeneration is not an uncontestable statement and is subject to questioning.

A change like this has some pretty significant gameplay ramifications too. If we simply increase stamina management to the point where the average player who plays as if stamina doesn't exist, can play just fine without worrying about it, you devalue the game knowledge and skill of the people already successfully managing their stamina and thus lower the skill ceiling which is what so many people are always worried about isn't it?

Just because someone asks for something to change and I come along and ask a few questions and offer advise, doesn't mean i'm suddenly the bad guy.

This is also no slate at you, but correct me if I'm wrong; you're an AU player are you not?

Hard, unavoidable mechanics aside - a lot of balance and the way things work in combat are greatly impacted by latency. It very much changes your play style, and I find it hard to take your criticisms and or backing of things current or the forwarding of ideas when your game experience is probably vastly different from mine where as the gap between myself and EU is much smaller.

This isn't me saying "au players have no rights / opinions.", but have played with many AU players and been friends with them outside of MO - they lag, a lot. Their gameplay, is drastically different from my own. In MO1, and in MO2; and in other games for obvious reasons.

Again, you're arguing stamina; which is more of a hard, unavoidable mechanic; but as someone who plays with people who know what they're doing and me knowing what I'm doing.. I think the stamina regen is pretty bad, regardless of the armor weight.

It's hard to pin point if it's stamina too, because there are too many static variables like everyone having access to everything, everyone running the same speed regardless of race / stats, and everyone having the same stats / skills even though it's more than likely over the threshold / cap.

One thing I notice in this game, stamina goes away very quickly; and takes forever to come back.