Updated Intelligence "Curve"

Grack

Member
Aug 28, 2020
41
67
18
You are a scholar and a gentleman good sir <3

Playing a Veela now and to be honest imo the magic isn't the issue 75-80 Int feels viable. You can max dex/con/str at 76 with min hight. The speed is noticable, its a slight advantage however. My first impressions are Alv do feel a bit weakish especially outside rough terrain, and water later probably. I'm fine with Alv not being amazing in open terrain fights because if they get such an advantage in obstructive environments they should lose it when it's not obstructive. It feels like the clade gifts towards stam regen when standing still are bugged or not working ? Need to test more especially against other races which I will do soon but so far it seems they have exactly the same regen time as Thurars which makes no sense and its a very slight buff for the active ability especially considering its cooldown.

As far as Int goes outside of hybrid im starting to think Psy fighters might need to be a big part of the meta with this linear model because fat/dex mages are beast atm. Not sure how I feel about fat/dex mages (would be interesting to hear peoples opinions) and the total state of balance but I feel they're edging closer to a fairely balanced system with a give and take towards each choice of race and playstyle.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Speznat

Kaemik

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2020
1,263
871
113
My particular take is that hybrids are dead. They already had to give up quite a bit to have one foot in both worlds. 340+ primary points to be viable at magic along with 50 points in a separate stat to do decent magic damage, and sub-par melee performance. Compare this to adding a bow to a fighter with only the high strength any melee fighter already has and 100 points in Archery to be viable. Hybrid was good, don't get me wrong, but it wasn't as OP as people said IMO. A small nerf would have been the most needed.

At this juncture, their only reasonable option is to dump everything from psyche to keep magic damage high. I highly disagree with the idea of making a corrupt/purify hybrid as the point investment is pretty high for just those two spells. But the 10 psyche hybrid is a dead man walking if the enemy has good mages on their team.

As a group, it simply makes the most sense to delete hybrids from the meta and have fighters and mages. Fat mages and dex mages got an overall buff if they are full mage. Slightly more damage for builds over 93 INT. Fast-hybrids nerfed beyond usability removes one of their major counters that was previously strong in the meta. And if anyone is foolish enough to continue running hybrid they're a walking lootbag to a good mage now as 10-20 psyche builds traditionally have 200+ health but hybrids will not.

I do like that 100 INT builds got a buff, but there were multiple better ways they could have done it without deleting an entire playstyle from the game as a viable option. Infact the buffs to 100 INT mages were are small at best. It's the non-viability of sub 100 INT builds in the current meta that makes them seem good now in comparison.
 
Last edited:

Dracu

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2020
268
276
63
Germany
My particular take is that hybrids are dead. They already had to give up quite a bit to have one foot in both worlds. 340+ primary points to be viable at magic along with 50 points in a separate stat to do decent magic damage, and sub-par melee performance. Compare this to adding a bow to a fighter with only the high strength any melee fighter already has and 100 points in Archery to be viable. Hybrid was good, don't get me wrong, but it wasn't as OP as people said IMO. A small nerf would have been the most needed.

At this juncture, their only reasonable option is to dump everything from psyche to keep magic damage high. I highly disagree with the idea of making a corrupt/purify hybrid as the point investment is pretty high for just those two spells. But the 10 psyche hybrid is a dead man walking if the enemy has good mages on their team.

As a group, it simply makes the most sense to delete hybrids from the meta and have fighters and mages. Fat mages and dex mages got an overall buff if they are full mage. Slightly more damage for builds over 93 INT. Fast-hybrids nerfed beyond usability removes one of their major counters that was previously strong in the meta. And if anyone is foolish enough to continue running hybrid they're a walking lootbag to a good mage now as 10-20 psyche builds traditionally have 200+ health but hybrids will not.

I do like that 100 INT builds got a buff, but there were multiple better ways they could have done it without deleting an entire playstyle from the game as a viable option. Infact the buffs to 100 INT mages were are small at best. It's the non-viability of sub 100 INT builds in the current meta that makes them seem good now in comparison.
Sums it up pretty good, thanks alot for the high effort put into testing aswell as sharing.
 

MolagAmur

Well-known member
Jul 15, 2020
231
286
63
My particular take is that hybrids are dead. They already had to give up quite a bit to have one foot in both worlds. 340+ primary points to be viable at magic along with 50 points in a separate stat to do decent magic damage, and sub-par melee performance. Compare this to adding a bow to a fighter with only the high strength any melee fighter already has and 100 points in Archery to be viable. Hybrid was good, don't get me wrong, but it wasn't as OP as people said IMO. A small nerf would have been the most needed.

At this juncture, their only reasonable option is to dump everything from psyche to keep magic damage high. I highly disagree with the idea of making a corrupt/purify hybrid as the point investment is pretty high for just those two spells. But the 10 psyche hybrid is a dead man walking if the enemy has good mages on their team.

As a group, it simply makes the most sense to delete hybrids from the meta and have fighters and mages. Fat mages and dex mages got an overall buff if they are full mage. Slightly more damage for builds over 93 INT. Fast-hybrids nerfed beyond usability removes one of their major counters that was previously strong in the meta. And if anyone is foolish enough to continue running hybrid they're a walking lootbag to a good mage now as 10-20 psyche builds traditionally have 200+ health but hybrids will not.

I do like that 100 INT builds got a buff, but there were multiple better ways they could have done it without deleting an entire playstyle from the game as a viable option. Infact the buffs to 100 INT mages were are small at best. It's the non-viability of sub 100 INT builds in the current meta that makes them seem good now in comparison.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Hybrids were never OP and didn't even need a small nerf. The same argument people use for bows (wear better armor than bone tissue) could be said for hybrids. They fall off hard as people start wearing metal armors.

But yeah. Its human paladin or nothing at this rate. I've played a hybrid since the beginning of MO...but don't think I can choose it with only having one character. You'll still see a few people doing it that stick to certain areas....but fighter and mage comps are going to be the bread and butter right now. Boring...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kelzyr and Archiel

Kaemik

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2020
1,263
871
113
Couldn't have said it better myself. Hybrids were never OP and didn't even need a small nerf.
I tend to agree. They were strong with a place in the game. As were foot-fighters and full mages. I think the bias of this community sometimes is anti anything that isn't a standard foot-fighter primarily dependent on melee though so they keep finding arguments to push anything else out of the meta.

I also agree, the end result is incredibly boring for anyone here to actually play a fantasy game. Builds like hybrid breath life into the world. I was looking forward to seeing them grow in diversity as we get 12 spell schools, not rendered useless.
 

Kelzyr

Active member
Sep 22, 2020
167
124
43
Couldn't have said it better myself. Hybrids were never OP and didn't even need a small nerf. The same argument people use for bows (wear better armor than bone tissue) could be said for hybrids. They fall off hard as people start wearing metal armors.
Big true, when everyone is sitting on 10 stacks of steel so they start wearing metal armors all the time hybrids hit like a wet noodle. Bows will still do more damage than hybrids 😂.

Magic damage at 50-110 int wasn't anything special before, especially in comparison to high str bows.
 

shill

New member
Mar 24, 2021
11
8
3
Big true, when everyone is sitting on 10 stacks of steel so they start wearing metal armors all the time hybrids hit like a wet noodle. Bows will still do more damage than hybrids 😂.

Magic damage at 50-110 int wasn't anything special before, especially in comparison to high str bows.
Except pure mages do not wear steel armor, and they are not perticuralry strong against melee in close combat...Not to mention armor type doesn't have any infuelnce on magic resistance whatsoever.

Hybrid with 50 INT healing 65-70% of 125INT mage - clearly thats OP (at least for me). Pure mage is gimped in many ways while hybrid was not really with that 50-100 very good magic spells outcome.


Just my 5 cents in the discussion.
 

Solairerection

Active member
May 28, 2020
114
82
28
Except pure mages do not wear steel armor, and they are not perticuralry strong against melee in close combat...Not to mention armor type doesn't have any infuelnce on magic resistance whatsoever.

Hybrid with 50 INT healing 65-70% of 125INT mage - clearly thats OP (at least for me). Pure mage is gimped in many ways while hybrid was not really with that 50-100 very good magic spells outcome.


Just my 5 cents in the discussion.
You are forgetting that hybrids don't have the mana pool or mana regen of pure mages, because they allocate points from psyche to strength, meaning they are sub-par mages. Granted, they hit as hard but went out of mana much earlier and had to wait much longer for it to regen than a mage would.

Hybrids were most popular before they added heavy armour training, with the max cap being around 16 armour weight. So you couldnt wear heavy armour like steel plate or you would be slowed down too much. Once metal armour were more commonly used hybrids disappeared because they just weren't viable options for most players, being sub-par fighters and sub-par mages. They should ofcourse not be better or comparable to 'pure classes', but at the same time there is no need to heavily gimp something just because you managed to split your skillpoints and attributes to fit a varied playstyle.

I think Starvault would do well not locking themselves into "classes" and allow players to be creative with their skillpoint and attribute point allocations, allowing "pure choices" to excel at what they do and allow variations in between.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MolagAmur

Morwen

Member
Mar 18, 2021
72
45
18
Couldn't have said it better myself. Hybrids were never OP and didn't even need a small nerf. The same argument people use for bows (wear better armor than bone tissue) could be said for hybrids. They fall off hard as people start wearing metal armors.

But yeah. Its human paladin or nothing at this rate. I've played a hybrid since the beginning of MO...but don't think I can choose it with only having one character. You'll still see a few people doing it that stick to certain areas....but fighter and mage comps are going to be the bread and butter right now. Boring...
You still seem to dont understand the nerf.

Hybrids were never nerfed because they were OP but because they didnt make sense on the big picture with other builds and stats curves (str, con, dex, etc).

Now everything makes more sense and from a point of view of a new player its now more intuitive to do the maths on the int and not confusing new players with 50 int being almost the same as 100 int and and how 50 con is very different from 100 con.

Now it just makes more sense.
 

Kaemik

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2020
1,263
871
113
Got it. So less choice and variety is a good thing if it makes people need to math less. Sounds like same school of thought that had theme parks removing skill trees because they were "too mathy".

Hybrids were a good, interesting, and fun build that gave the game flavor. And now they are useless. Dead. Zero place for them in the meta, and the game is worse for it.
 

Kelzyr

Active member
Sep 22, 2020
167
124
43
You still seem to dont understand the nerf.

Hybrids were never nerfed because they were OP but because they didnt make sense on the big picture with other builds and stats curves (str, con, dex, etc).

Now everything makes more sense and from a point of view of a new player its now more intuitive to do the maths on the int and not confusing new players with 50 int being almost the same as 100 int and and how 50 con is very different from 100 con.

Now it just makes more sense.
Then would you agree that just because it makes sense now doesn't mean the change was done right?
 

Morwen

Member
Mar 18, 2021
72
45
18
Then would you agree that just because it makes sense now doesn't mean the change was done right?
I still think there is a DEX curve tweak pending and it will make more sense after that for the Veela case.
 

Vansetsu

New member
Mar 17, 2021
3
3
3
I'll be the contrarian here and disagree that hybrids are not dead, while conceding that they are indeed nerfed and more restricted in builds (which is what you should hope for in a build that has more utility but is less effective).

Without writing a thesis, I'll simply say that you can afford to take from strength to make up for whatever amount of int you need. This will of course make clades/bloodlines with more attribute points better candidates for the build, hence some of the added "restrictive-ness" of the build.

I'll make this point on a few simple observations:

1. A Lower than average strength won't restrict you from using the majority of viable weapons. A heavy blade 2h steel/tung GS has a str req of 71~. So while there may be some super heavy str req weps, viable weapons are by no means off limits on say an 80~ str char.

2. Speaking of low str chars - veelas run between 80-90 str, and even with the current spot dex is in, almost no one is saying the clade is dead for footfighting. That said, other clades can achieve this str and also higher height to still receive a respectable and higher DMG bonus.

So, IMO, this really just tightens the build, nerfs it a bit, but doesn't make it dead - you can sacrifice from strength to makeup for the 50 softcap as needed, and still be an average footie. I think a lot of folks simply wouldn't imagine having to pull some amount from this stat to use the build.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BongRips