No default flagging, optional flagging for advanced player towns only

Godkin Veratas

Active member
Jul 3, 2020
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There has been some discussion about the flag system changing. it's all very mysterious. Here's some points to consider.

Look at the Alpha. No guards, no universal flag.

The fears of a constant deathmatch arena are unjustified and dis-proven. People are able to craft, explore, and do things other than combat.

There are norms of combat, conflict, crime, and justice emerging without an additional system from SV.
Players can create and manage their own conflicts and rules, determine what is acceptable and not acceptable in an area and deal their own justice.

If you add a flagging system to the alpha right now, would it make anything better, objectively?
Don't add anything that won't help, no matter how good the intentions are.


The flag system in MO made everything worse and created horrible situations.
Blue griefers only exist because of flags. The endless tweaking of friendly fire rules, blue blocking, or luring noobs into attacking, was debated for years. Massive opportunities to exploit and frustrate people emerge BECAUSE of the flags. it literally gets in the way of players creating safe communities.
The murdercount system was horrible, statloss, leaving the computer running all night, a disaster for electric bills, computer parts, and the environment. Underwhelming. What did we gain with that complicated system? Not much and obvious costs.

If that's all true, consider an alternative to the clusterfuck that was....flip the MO1 ruleset upside down.
Rules, laws, reputation in territory can be achieved by well run and organized regions. People will seek out safer areas that are just and well-run because cities are generally less safe.
 

barcode

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2020
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also no scarcity. you cant 'pk tak gold' when there is nothing to take. vendors have infinite materials and give them freely, so there is no competition for resources. sure you could go do some mining and maybe make some cronite but is that much work really worth it when you can pick up 10k tungsteel out of a barrel?

using the current state of alpha to model how players will act at release is invalid

henrik has mentioned removing the flagging system in favor of a reputation system, we all wait with bated breath...

-barcode
 

Godkin Veratas

Active member
Jul 3, 2020
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also no scarcity. you cant 'pk tak gold' when there is nothing to take. vendors have infinite materials and give them freely, so there is no competition for resources. sure you could go do some mining and maybe make some cronite but is that much work really worth it when you can pick up 10k tungsteel out of a barrel?

using the current state of alpha to model how players will act at release is invalid

henrik has mentioned removing the flagging system in favor of a reputation system, we all wait with bated breath...

-barcode

Sure, people like to murder when there's incentive to do so. People like to murder to ease boredom in Nave. Add an additional incentive for murder and the entire current state of play is invalid? Hmm...

Are you saying that an increase in competition for resources would break down the current player self organization? That people would stop enforcing local rules, punishing violations, driving out people they don't like, and welcoming people they do? I've seen no evidence that scarcity has that effect on people, quite the opposite. If that's not your point, I'm missing it.

The question SV should be asking is;
What outcome are we even trying to accomplish with a universal justice system? How can a system improve on what people come up with on their own with no intervention?

To get it right they have to see clearly that a system is not really needed in the first place. It definitely wasn't what we had in MO1.
 

Valoran

Well-known member
May 28, 2020
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Barcode hit the nail on the head with this one.

The only reason we don't see mass griefing in towns is because there is no reason to do so, as you gain literally nothing from killing someone other than the fun of the fight, which can be had with many people who want to fight you already.

The moment you add real value to all items, you add incentive for people to try and take those items.
 

Solairerection

Active member
May 28, 2020
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Barcode hit the nail on the head with this one.

The only reason we don't see mass griefing in towns is because there is no reason to do so, as you gain literally nothing from killing someone other than the fun of the fight, which can be had with many people who want to fight you already.

The moment you add real value to all items, you add incentive for people to try and take those items.

People don't grief to gain wealth, they do so out of boredom or to piss people off. It's more likely we don't see much griefing because the people playing are here to test first and foremost and log out when are done testing, rather than stay ingame and try to cure their boredom.
 

Valoran

Well-known member
May 28, 2020
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People don't grief to gain wealth, they do so out of boredom or to piss people off. It's more likely we don't see much griefing because the people playing are here to test first and foremost and log out when are done testing, rather than stay ingame and try to cure their boredom.
Exactly, and the easiest way to grief someone is to take all their hard earned belongings, and seeing as no belongings are hard earned at the moment (Unless you're one of the few who has made some cronite) that incentive isn't there yet.
 

Solairerection

Active member
May 28, 2020
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Exactly, and the easiest way to grief someone is to take all their hard earned belongings, and seeing as no belongings are hard earned at the moment (Unless you're one of the few who has made some cronite) that incentive isn't there yet.

Your most valuable resource is time, and that can be wasted by getting repeatedly priest-camped or ganked at the crafting table, or ganked while duelling or fighting in general. Sure, we could argue "it's only an alpha, it doesn't matter what we do" but the guy getting priest-camped for an entire evening would disagree with that, as his time has disappeared.

I find it more likely the people who has bought the alpha are more keen on testing and playing than they are of griefing.
 
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Handsome Young Man

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Jun 13, 2020
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Your most valuable resource is time, and that can be wasted by getting repeatedly priest-camped or ganked at the crafting table, or ganked while duelling or fighting in general. Sure, we could argue "it's only an alpha, it doesn't matter what we do" but the guy getting priest-camped for an entire evening would disagree with that, as his time has disappeared.

I find it more likely the people who has bought the alpha are more keen on testing and playing than they are of griefing.
You wont get priest camped unless you purposely go out of your way to bring it upon yourself.

I don't think I've seen a random person who was doing no harm or wrong to anyone get priest camped.

People who get priest camped are people who actively engage in PvP with others, grief at the tables, or if you're TruthShower.

Don't be a TruthShower, and you wont get camped at the priest.
 
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Piet

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May 28, 2020
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You wont get priest camped unless you purposely go out of your way to bring it upon yourself.

I don't think I've seen a random person who was doing no harm or wrong to anyone get priest camped.

People who get priest camped are people who actively engage in PvP with others, grief at the tables, or if you're TruthShower.

Don't be a TruthShower, and you wont get camped at the priest.
I disagree. You think to highly of humanity. Some people just priest camp anyone cause they are asshats. I got priest camped while trying to stream in my discord to show a friend the crafting system. Jumped from behind and when killed priest camped just like that.
 

Piet

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May 28, 2020
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As to this ridiculous thread. If you don't have guards it's not just blue blocking which was avoidable and a solution was made for, you have all of the socializers, explorers, and achievers gone.
There is no actual reasoning or thought behind removing guards. There is no chance Starvault will do it. You couldn't argue your point in discord so moved it to the forums hoping that you would be able to push the burden of proof off on others here. There is still no thought behind your idea just I am a killer so I feel I should be able to kill without pesky guards stopping me.
 

Handsome Young Man

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Jun 13, 2020
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I disagree. You think to highly of humanity. Some people just priest camp anyone cause they are asshats. I got priest camped while trying to stream in my discord to show a friend the crafting system. Jumped from behind and when killed priest camped just like that.

I know you will say this is irrelevant to the topic, but the town you start your character in also matters. Fabernum, GK, and Bakti have been pretty much PvP grounds for most of this alpha. Anywhere else is relatively calm. I recommend Vadda or Moh-ki if you wish to explore stuff like that, not saying that proves my point or your point wrong.

But you more than likely got mistaken for someone else.
 

Piet

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May 28, 2020
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I know you will say this is irrelevant to the topic, but the town you start your character in also matters. Fabernum, GK, and Bakti have been pretty much PvP grounds for most of this alpha. Anywhere else is relatively calm. I recommend Vadda or Moh-ki if you wish to explore stuff like that, not saying that proves my point or your point wrong.

But you more than likely got mistaken for someone else.
I get your point but I believe you are miss-interpreting the data. I believe that was due to the spread of the population and just so happened to correlate.
 

Godkin Veratas

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Jul 3, 2020
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Its more likely that SV would add third person than remove guards.
There is no request to remove guards, only to set the default at zero (can be added if players want them) and have no flagging unless it's specified by players in particular regions.

As to this ridiculous thread. If you don't have guards it's not just blue blocking which was avoidable and a solution was made for, you have all of the socializers, explorers, and achievers gone.
There is no actual reasoning or thought behind removing guards. There is no chance Starvault will do it. You couldn't argue your point in discord so moved it to the forums hoping that you would be able to push the burden of proof off on others here. There is still no thought behind your idea just I am a killer so I feel I should be able to kill without pesky guards stopping me.

You've taken a stab at reading my motives and done quite a poor job. I don't know you Piet, but I do know the demon that haunts you. You are not being killed because others are hateful, you are not a victim. You are killed because you are annoying. Your claims of innocence don't make you innocent, they reveal your lack of self-awareness. Covering that ignorance in a blue flag only frustrates and confuses things. You fear player justice because you think you're better than others, yet they continually hurt you for being obnoxious, and you refuse to change.

Repent.
 

Vagrant

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Oct 8, 2020
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no fixed address
with most having only one account in play and single characters building reputations - depending on how reputations actually work - there's probably little point to flagging, except maybe within the wardec/alliance situations perhaps but it would be good to see how the community sorts itself out at first at least.
 
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Piet

Well-known member
May 28, 2020
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There is no request to remove guards, only to set the default at zero (can be added if players want them) and have no flagging unless it's specified by players in particular regions.



You've taken a stab at reading my motives and done quite a poor job. I don't know you Piet, but I do know the demon that haunts you. You are not being killed because others are hateful, you are not a victim. You are killed because you are annoying. Your claims of innocence don't make you innocent, they reveal your lack of self-awareness. Covering that ignorance in a blue flag only frustrates and confuses things. You fear player justice because you think you're better than others, yet they continually hurt you for being obnoxious, and you refuse to change.

Repent.
You don't know me, don't try to make a debate personal and attack with emotion. I too was under the impression you are asking to remove guards. If you do have an actual system that is a replacement I am all ears but from what I see you are simply making excuses and emotional attacks. For instance a way your idea could work and I already stated in discord is to have at least 1 city have guards at the start and the others be able to be taken over and controlled and rules made by them. They had a rough system of this already in MO1. The issue if you start out that way however is most people will spawn in that 1 town and it would cause lag instead of spreading the population out evenly.
 
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Ministro

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Dec 3, 2020
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You've taken a stab at reading my motives and done quite a poor job. I don't know you Piet, but I do know the demon that haunts you. You are not being killed because others are hateful, you are not a victim. You are killed because you are annoying. Your claims of innocence don't make you innocent, they reveal your lack of self-awareness. Covering that ignorance in a blue flag only frustrates and confuses things. You fear player justice because you think you're better than others, yet they continually hurt you for being obnoxious, and you refuse to change.

Repent.

This is exactly the kind of bullshit this forum doesn't need.
 
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Godkin Veratas

Active member
Jul 3, 2020
120
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There has been some discussion about the flag system changing. it's all very mysterious. Here's some points to consider.

Look at the Alpha. No guards, no universal flag.

The fears of a constant deathmatch arena are unjustified and dis-proven. People are able to craft, explore, and do things other than combat.

There are norms of combat, conflict, crime, and justice emerging without an additional system from SV.
Players can create and manage their own conflicts and rules, determine what is acceptable and not acceptable in an area and deal their own justice.

If you add a flagging system to the alpha right now, would it make anything better, objectively?
Don't add anything that won't help, no matter how good the intentions are.


The flag system in MO made everything worse and created horrible situations.
Blue griefers only exist because of flags. The endless tweaking of friendly fire rules, blue blocking, or luring noobs into attacking, was debated for years. Massive opportunities to exploit and frustrate people emerge BECAUSE of the flags. it literally gets in the way of players creating safe communities.
The murdercount system was horrible, statloss, leaving the computer running all night, a disaster for electric bills, computer parts, and the environment. Underwhelming. What did we gain with that complicated system? Not much and obvious costs.

If that's all true, consider an alternative to the clusterfuck that was....flip the MO1 ruleset upside down.
Rules, laws, reputation in territory can be achieved by well run and organized regions. People will seek out safer areas that are just and well-run because cities are generally less safe.


We now have guards, and a "justice" reputation system. Is it better now than it was when I wrote the OP?

The best part of MO2 is the size and scale. Cities represent a fairly small section of the map in total. If they implement TC well, we'll need to get players out of cities and away from silly systems asap.
 

Zbuciorn

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Jun 3, 2020
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We are so nice to each other right now because most of the players just log in to check a few things after patch or to have a duel or two every day.
There is not enough targets to have fun from griefing at this moment.
 
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