Introduce cast speed for mages + allow casting while moving

Vergil

Member
May 1, 2021
40
17
8
Allowing mages to actually cast while moving would be one of the steps towards more dynamic and interesting fights in both PvE and PvP.

This can be balanced by implementing cast speed stat.
E.g. by reducing cast speed while moving. And improving cast speed from dex. (faster fingers / articulacy effect?)

This would also partially solve dex being worst-stat-to-stack-in-the-game problem.

Magic school proficiency should also affect cast speed, so it should promote spending more points into it.


This would also solve lots of balance problems between Fatmages vs Dex mages vs Hybrids that exists at the moment. (Instead of plain nerfing hybrids)
Cast speed stat potentially can be expanded further into clade gifts area. This will also allow providing pinpoint buffs to specific builds, instead of overtuning / nerfing builds that do not require these changes.

(Cross-posted idea from here: https://mortalonline2.com/forums/threads/updated-intelligence-curve.2265/page-4#post-28101)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Neftan

Solairerection

Active member
May 28, 2020
122
93
28
I don't agree it's a good idea and the issue lies entirely on pre-kiting. It's bad enough with bows vs melee and would be even worse against magic where there is no stamina involved apart from the sprinting.

I would rather they put focus on allowing players to dodge when you get caught (or very close to) in melee range, thinking of the old double-tap jump. Unless you are up against a bad player, who can't track properly, you will need to pre-kite much too early to be able to start doing damage as a mage. Mainly this is due to the slow movement speed the game has but also due to mentioned lack of tools to dodge or evade in melee range, as you can't 'skillfully' evade someone, unless they are bad.
 

Vergil

Member
May 1, 2021
40
17
8
I don't agree it's a good idea and the issue lies entirely on pre-kiting. It's bad enough with bows vs melee and would be even worse against magic where there is no stamina involved apart from the sprinting.

I would rather they put focus on allowing players to dodge when you get caught (or very close to) in melee range, thinking of the old double-tap jump. Unless you are up against a bad player, who can't track properly, you will need to pre-kite much too early to be able to start doing damage as a mage. Mainly this is due to the slow movement speed the game has but also due to mentioned lack of tools to dodge or evade in melee range, as you can't 'skillfully' evade someone, unless they are bad.
If you've ever played mage, and then switched to pure bow, you'd understand why this one is important.
Being able to move rather than just to spaz arround / jump randomly feels much more better for the chased and the chasers as well.

Archers already have this, and have much more stamina than dex mages can ever get. I don't see how it can be worse with a cast speed penalty.
At the very least it will promote smart terrain movement, rather than plain zerg rush towards mages.

Plus, movement speed is no longer best stat in game, and is pretty much a utility stat.


TL;DR: One playstyle should not suffer from gameplay perspective, just because it makes playstyle "balanced" for other playstyle in PvP setting only.
That's just poor game design 101.

If a game is balanced around melee only - nobody would want to play anything else in the end.
Potentially loosing big chunks of audience that do not like melee combat at all.



Not having dodge is a different problem though. I agree that it should be implemented but highly dislike how it was in MO1.
Having an actual dodge animation with iframes would be great, but not sure if possible in MMORPG setup with all the ping normalization and technical issues.
 
Last edited:

Rorry

Well-known member
May 30, 2020
1,010
528
113
42
Kansas
The double tap was a great thing to distinguish good mages from poor ones, I miss it.
Running and casting does seem to fit with the overall trend toward taking the skill out of pvp, though.
The whole system, melee, archery, magic, is so blas`e, un- dynamic, and dependent on numbers or player location so much that I don't even enjoy it enough to want to log in and fight.
 

LivingshadeNL

Active member
Mar 23, 2021
137
70
28
Id rather have them add double tap again, and change the dex curve so a veela can break a sticky.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Rorry

Vergil

Member
May 1, 2021
40
17
8
Something has to change with the dex mage balancing. That's for sure.
There isn't any skill in PvP when you're missing dodge, speed, health, stamina, damage and armor in comparison to other builds.
That is a problem with Alvarin overall.

Benefits - getting 20-40m (pathetic) max range. Wow. Now that's overpowered.
Bows can't shoot that far.
Melee fighters cannot switch to bows, right?



Also, as far as I vaguely remember, MO1 had magic schools that do not rely on standing still to cast.
So at some point SV realized that this mechanic sucks.
Not quite sure why they have decided not to change anything in MO2.





Rambling onwards:
Thing is, while I understand that vets want to have MO1 + nicer visuals - this is a wrong approach to develop a better game.
Which MO2 should be, with smoother animations and better game design, not the exact same one as it was.
That is clunky and obsolete for the current year. Its 2021. Cmon.

Otherwise, might just wait for MO3 instead.
 

StreamerLord

Active member
Dec 2, 2020
106
77
28
Necromancy in the old game let you cast while moving it was balanced because you did not pre cast. You had to hit your target as the cast animation ended. This is MO2 the sequel to MO it's going to basically be the same game unfortunately.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Vergil

Piet

Active member
May 28, 2020
367
230
43
This is a bad idea plain and simple. With this I could constantly cast at a warrior without them being able to do much if anything. Bows just need to take more stam that will make magic better because no one will use half their stam bar to shoot twice like it was in mo1. Magic being able to cast as you run would mean high end armor would be pointless and it would also lower skill cap of team fights and formations.
 

Rorry

Well-known member
May 30, 2020
1,010
528
113
42
Kansas
Rambling onwards:
Thing is, while I understand that vets want to have MO1 + nicer visuals - this is a wrong approach to develop a better game.
Which MO2 should be, with smoother animations and better game design, not the exact same one as it was.
That is clunky and obsolete for the current year. Its 2021. Cmon.

Otherwise, might just wait for MO3 instead.
MO2 combat is much more clunky than MO1 was though.
A better running MO1 with nicer visuals would be better than MO2 hands down, no question. I am already struggling to even want to pvp in this game, it is so slow and boring. The outcome of every fight is practically predetermined unless you are killing new players.
 

Weathermore

Active member
Apr 5, 2021
103
81
28
I think this should be done, however, magic also needs to be projectile based instead of hit-scan based for this change to be implemented without being overpowered. Just look at how Darkfall handled magic, minus things like projectile instant cast rays (which don't work with MO 2 combat) for an example of how magic in this game should be.
 

Rorry

Well-known member
May 30, 2020
1,010
528
113
42
Kansas
I think this should be done, however, magic also needs to be projectile based instead of hit-scan based for this change to be implemented without being overpowered. Just look at how Darkfall handled magic, minus things like projectile instant cast rays (which don't work with MO 2 combat) for an example of how magic in this game should be.
The "let's do things like Darkfall argument" doesn't work for me. I hated Darkfall and don't want MO to be made like it.
 

Kaemik

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2020
1,570
1,104
113
Honestly, dex mages vs. non-mages vs. fat mages has a rather simple solution that is staring us all in the face.

Str gives 1 stam per point.
Dex gives 1 stam per point.
Con gives 2 stam per point.

Str also gives armor weight, melee weapon usability, bow draw weight, melee damage, and carry capacity.
Dex gives jump height and the heavily nerfed stat of move speed.

So imagine this:

Str gives 0 stam per point.
Dex gives 2 stam per point.
Con gives 2 stam per point.

Problem solved. This also helps deal with the fact Ohgmirs are becoming OP, and while it is a rather big hit to a lot of Thursar builds, Thursar healthsteal getting a buff to not be a complete and total joke would instantly make them as strong as they should be.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LivingshadeNL

Rorry

Well-known member
May 30, 2020
1,010
528
113
42
Kansas
Honestly, dex mages vs. non-mages vs. fat mages has a rather simple solution that is staring us all in the face.

Str gives 1 stam per point.
Dex gives 1 stam per point.
Con gives 2 stam per point.

Str also gives armor weight, melee weapon usability, bow draw weight, melee damage, and carry capacity.
Dex gives jump height and the heavily nerfed stat of move speed.

So imagine this:

Str gives 0 stam per point.
Dex gives 2 stam per point.
Con gives 2 stam per point.

Problem solved. This also helps deal with the fact Ohgmirs are becoming OP, and while it is a rather big hit to a lot of Thursar builds, Thursar healthsteal getting a buff to not be a complete and total joke would instantly make them as strong as they should be.
Stam isn't even close to the only problem that mages have though. It wouldn't matter if you have more stam if you can't live long enough to use it. We need the double tap jump back to break stickies. Then there's the issue of arrow damage.
 

Kaemik

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2020
1,570
1,104
113
Stam isn't even close to the only problem that mages have though. It wouldn't matter if you have more stam if you can't live long enough to use it. We need the double tap jump back to break stickies. Then there's the issue of arrow damage.
I'm speaking purely to the issue of dex mages vs. other mage types and addressing the fact they have lower stam than non-mage builds. Not any agenda to make all mages stronger. If you want to implement things like a double tap jump, then assuming that eats stam, I'd consider this change even more important.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Vergil

Rorry

Well-known member
May 30, 2020
1,010
528
113
42
Kansas
I'm speaking purely to the issue of dex mages vs. other mage types and addressing the fact they have lower stam than non-mage builds. Not any agenda to make all mages stronger. If you want to implement things like a double tap jump, then assuming that eats stam, I'd consider this change even more important.
I see. Yes, double tap jump did use stam, but mages had low stam in MO1 as well, it was just balanced out by speed and being able to get that slight distance on a fighter right at first. It wasn't perfect but it gave a chance for a player to survive by the application of skill.
 

Vergil

Member
May 1, 2021
40
17
8
This is a bad idea plain and simple. With this I could constantly cast at a warrior without them being able to do much if anything. Bows just need to take more stam that will make magic better because no one will use half their stam bar to shoot twice like it was in mo1. Magic being able to cast as you run would mean high end armor would be pointless and it would also lower skill cap of team fights and formations.
So regarding "skill". Its a joke.

I've rerolled to fat mage (138 Int / oghmir) to see what difference to dex mage actually is, and results were suprising.

Fatmage can pretty much precast flamestrike, hit a warrior for 1/3 of hp;
Then add two more casts and any melee fighter is dead (e.g. while using a shield and just looking at the floor).

Add two fatmages - instagib pretty much. (Which already renders armor useless anyway)

Dex mages are obviously more "dangerous". :LOL:

Balance does not exist in the game at the moment.
So SV might at least fix broken mechanics that were broken in MO1, and then apply balance changes accordingly.


Projectile based combat with actual movement and dodges would be near to skill based, but in reality, I doubt it will ever happen.
 
Last edited:

Vergil

Member
May 1, 2021
40
17
8
Is this actually true? I haven't tried it specifically, but I have found spell hit boxes to be very tight around a character.
No, I've meant that people tend to hit with melee weapons into [Equipment] / shield on the back, while you're casting at the floor.

Low height means there's no head sticking around, so you're like a turtle, pretty invulnerable with a decent shield.
Not everyone had a time to react to the tripple flamestrike from my testing though.

I doubt this counts as a "skillful" play, but hey. Now it will be the only thing the mages will do. And this will just get worse overtime.


At least dex mages cannot run away /s :LOL:
But then there's mounts. KEKW
 
Last edited:

Rorry

Well-known member
May 30, 2020
1,010
528
113
42
Kansas
No, I've meant that people tend to hit with melee weapons into [Equipment] / shield on the back, while you're casting at the floor.

Low height means there's no head sticking around, so you're like a turtle, pretty invulnerable with a decent shield.
Not everyone had a time to react to the tripple flamestrike from my testing though.

I doubt this counts as a "skillful" play, but hey. Now it will be the only thing the mages will do. And this will just get worse overtime.


At least dex mages cannot run away /s :LOL:
But then there's mounts. KEKW
Ah, yes, I see.