Feedback about Weapons, Combat, the new (Attack Modifiers Charge Attack) option and the faster windup-speed, after hitting the ground, or an opponent

Anabolic Man

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We can now bind Thrust attack and Overhead attack on different Keys, and enable the Option (Attack Modifiers charges Attacks).
You will now perform an Overhead or Thrust Attack if you hold down the Key you choose. In my case E and Q


The problem is the following.

It force you to look down and block, to perform a mid Block. We can´t hold down the Key we bound for Thrust attack + right mouse to perform a mid block, becuase it would charge a Thrust attack. Imo Alt + right mouse should still work to perform a mid block,
independently of the Key we bound for Thrust attack.

That is why we can´t use this aswesome new features, till we get the Option to bind the mid Block on a Key we want.

Spear Users will try to get behind you and it is bad, if you cant press a mid Block Key, + or a Key + right mouse to perform a mid block. I love this new mechanic, but it can only be used, if we will be able to bind a button for the mid Block aswell. I would personally choose the Alt Key

If a spear user want to get behind you, you need to look left or right and follow him with your mouse. It´s a pain in the ass, to look down and hold the right mouse, to perform a mid block, while you want to turn arround and follow the player with the mouse. This way you get tons of imput errors, eben if the drag and swing sensetivity get reduced. Plz fix this as soon as possible ! I love this new feature, but i can´t use it for now, till SV will fix the mid Block issue which this system entails.

Atm i have bound Overhead to Q and Thrust attack on Alt without the (Attack Modifiers charge attacks) option, but i would love to turn this on, as soon as we can select a Key for the Mid Block. I think this should have high priority, and it not take much time, to add one additional
Key assignment in the settings !
If we will get the possebility to bind a Key for the Mid block, this new Mechanic will the the best thing SV have ever down to improve the Combat mechanics,
because new players as well as veterans will no longer classify the Combat System as clunky.
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Anabolic Man

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The second thing i want to give some feedback about are the faster windup swings, that have been added to MO2, that will happen if you hit an object, the enemy (in the case he not parry your swing), or the floor.


Note : this not have the highest priority, but it would be awesome if SV take their time to test a bit arround to get more feedback.

First of all i want to explain some of the technical terms, before i come to the Feedback of the new Mechanics

What is Swingspeed mainipulation ?

If you move the mouse in the direction of the Swing, to make the blade connect faster. For excemple if you make an Overhead and look to the ground during the swing, or if you make a Swing and turn in the direction of the swing.

What is a faster windupspeed attack ?

If you hit your opponent, an object, or the floor your animation of the next swing will be faster. It will not work, if your opponent will parry your attack. These faster windup-attacks differ considerably in their properties compared to normal swings.
Their damage does not increase steadily over time, as with normal swings
These swings will charge faster. It takes arround 1 Second instead of 2.5 seconds.

These faster windup-attacks deal ether very low damage, or a good ammount of damage, if the swing is charged for a specific period of time. This is a good mechanic/Solutions, to prevent players from using Ninjapokes ! This give the US Players enough time to react and speed up the combat at the same time !


How you can trick your Opponent to block in the wrong direction ?

First of all new Players need to know that you can turn your Character to a specific angle, look on the ground or in the air, to trick the enemy, becuase you can make Hits look as an attack from another direction, or make moves that looks a bit like a feint in thein the heat of the battle. You can turn your back to the opponent, to make it harder for him to see your blade, if you make a feint and in which direction you gonna make your attack. This can confuse a Player to block in the wrong direction. Good Players will know the animations well, but even they can be tricked from time to time.

Many Players know that mechanic being used from Spear-Fighters. You can turn your Character to the right side, charge a right attack and then turn left in the last moment before the hit connects, which will make the right swing look like a mid attack.

If you are a New Player you need to get some musclememory. Here are a few good exercises.

Turn your mouse a bit to the right side and hold left mouse to charge a right attack, and immediatly turn in the other direction (to the left side till you made a 180 degree turn), so that you turn your back to the opponent

Then press Strg to cancel the attack and continiue turning left while holding the right mouse till you made a 360 and release the swing. Do it in slowmotion till you get the musclememory. This method allows you to charge a right swing, turn 360 degrees, and strike from a different direction.

You can also rotate 180 degrees and charge a thrust attack or an overhead attack.
This is a good excercise to get a feel for the combat system.

Now i want to talk about some tricks, that can be used to confuse the opponent, and how the swing speed manipulation can be used, to get a faster windup swing animation)


If you parry and look staight up in the air, then turn your mouse to the right side, while still looking in the sky, and then release the swing, while turning your mouse obliquely to the left below, to speed up the swing, you get what is called a blind parry. It can confuse players, to block wrong.

This is the same thing as with a Counterparry Overhead swing that look a bit like a right swing, if you do it from the correct angle. You have to look on the ground, move to the right for 90 degrees, charge your overhead-swing and turn your mouse back to hit the target. If you look on the ground during the windup, It looks a bit like a right swing (if the opponent is in defensive mode, because he has only a few hitpoints left and stands right in front of you, without moving or running arround, to look at you at a different angle) If your swing miss, you will hit the ground, if you are using a long weapon.
 
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Anabolic Man

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Both of the moves mentioned above will make you hit the ground if you miss, and you can immediatly charge up a new attack with a shorter animation, that will need less time to get fully charged, (if you are using a long weapon). I call this faster windup-swings. The increased speed of the swings are a nice addon to the game ! It make the Gameplay much faster and more dynamic as in MO1, but hitting the floor, to get a faster windup-swing don´t seems to be very logical, even if it is fun to use (because a mechanic to get a faster charged hit, is better then no mechanic to get a faster charged swing).
I will later go into how this mechanics of a faster chargeable swing can be improved.

First of all i want to mention that this new mechanic should be limited to players that are using long range weapons.
The much faster 1 h short weapons should not get the faster windup-speed attacks. They are fast enough and allow the player to carry a shield, that is very strong in teamfights, becuase you get a lot of equipment hits.

Now to the actual feedback

Why does the new implemented Mechanic of faster windup-swings might look wired and why should it be default for 2 H Weapons


The faster windup-swings should be default on 2 H Weapons, without being forced to hit the ground, if you will miss a swing, as it is the case right now, during the Betatest. This mechanic cause players to hit the ground, instead of canceling a charged swing with STRG. This looks a bit wired, if players do it too often.

What are the benefits of a faster windup-swing Aninimation and how much damage will you get from it ?

The faster windup swings make the gameplay faster and much more fun. Atm you have to charge the faster windup-swing for arround 1 second to deal arround 22 Damage (tested with a Jadeite Longsword), and this is awesome and feels very well ! A Babarian like me want to swing his sword like a crazy, and we are able to do that now.

How can the mechanic behind the faster swings be improved, to make the combat system even more skillbased, more dynamic, more logical and understandable ?

After every fully, nearly fully charged swing, a feint after a fully charged swing, or after a missed counterparry Overhead, that hit the floor, you should get a faster windup attack, no matter if you hit the target.

A normal quick Overhead while looking downwards to speed up the Overhead, to hit the ground, should not trigger a faster windup animation.

Hitting the ground to get this faster animation should be limited to the "counterparry Overheads" becuase they are harder to land.

If you do a fully charged swing, or after using a feint after a fully charged hit, you should get a faster windup animation for the next swing, but only for 1 swing, and this faster windup Swings should be able to be expended, without you having to make a fully charged swing again, as long as the fast windup swing continiue to hit your target.

As long as you hit the enemy, you should get the frame advantage (a faster windup attack) till you miss your target, or get parried from your opponent.

The "Frameadvantage" (your pressure through the fast windupspeed attacks) should end, if you miss the taget or get parried by your opponent, so that you are forced to make a fully charged hit again, cancel your fully charged swing, parry your opponent, land a counterhit, or if you hit the ground with your counterparry Overhead or counterparry swing from above, if you use the swingmanipulating technique mentioned above, that will hit the ground if you miss. (If you parry and look staight up in the air, then turn your mouse to the right side, while still looking in the sky, and then release the swing, while turning your mouse obliquely to the left below, to speed up the swing)

If you make this, you should be get your turn to continiue with your pressure again.
If you miss your taget with the faster windupspeed attack, or get parried it should be ypur opponents turn.
The perfect time for your opponent to charge a full attack and start his pressure, or to make a quick attack that deals low damage.

I think your pressure should not be ended by a tradehit.

I have to admit that i really enjoy the combat so far ! Even if it is now, but it can be finetuned. The faster swings feel great, even if you have to hit the ground from time to time to continiue you pressure but the combat could be even much more skillbased. The faster gameplay feels very nice. I love the faster windupspeed attacks. Something I have really missed that in MO1 !


Why it is so important, that the US Players will write more Feedback, and why they don´t have to be afraid of Ninjapokes.

First of all i want to ask if anyone from the US having problems to block a hit after someone hit the ground (the faster windup-swings) ?

It would be nice to get some feedback from US Players on that, and if those could make a Video about the testing with someone from Europe! I have fought several players from the US and have seen my faster windup-swings getting blocked by them. Combat seems to work much better as in MO1, if you fight players from Overseas. SV did a good job there.

I would like to see if Players from the USA can properly react, or if they have to watch the arms animation, to react faster. The chargeup of this shorter animation windup-attacks take arround 1 sec. Less chargingtime will make them deal very low damage. After 1 Second they deal arround 22 Damage. If the faster windup swings not get charged for arround a second, they deal arround 3-4 Hp. This is why i think, that US Players should not be afraid of getting NInjapoked to death. It make no sense to abuse Ninjapokes, if a single parry will result in more damage as 10 Ninjapokes. A Player will always parry 2 of 10 Swings, and get a chance for Counterparry that deals huge Damage. If you need to charge those faster attacks for arround a second, to make them deal arround 22 damage, you give the US Players enough time for them to react.

Now to the important part, why the US Players don´t have to worry about Ninjapokes, and why the Solution of the SV Developers seems to be very smart, to make this faster Combat possible, even with higher Ping Players.

This is due to the different characteristics of the swings.

There is an Important difference between the normal Swings and the faster windspeed-Swings!


It appears that the damage on these faster annimated swings does not increase over time, as it does with normal swings. Either these do very low damage, or good damage if the blow is charged for a period of time. This is a good mechanic/Solutions, to prevent players from using Ninjapokes !


It is all a thing of adjustment. I wish more US Players would give feedback. Rather now, than after release, if the speed need to be fine-tuned. For me the timing for the faster windup-attacks to deal increased Damage seems well adjusted. It´s arround 1 Second. This give the US Players enough time to react.

Giving us the ability to bind different blockdirections on separate Buttons will increase the reactiontime to block an attack ! SV have confirmed that !


Implementing all this feedback into the game, would result in a combat System, that allow you to make a 2 Swing Combo. Fully Charged Hit into a faster swing (that deal some damage), or a fully Charged Hit + Feint into a faster second hit, with the ability to expand the pressure, if you won´t miss your opponent, if you can keep the proper distance. That would make the Combat more skillbased, as if you just hit the ground to get a faster Attack.




I will ask a friend to make a Video about it, so everyone can better understand what i mean,
in case I have expressed myself incomprehensibly.

what are your opinions ? Feel free to comment.
 
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Bernfred

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its an important issue that needs to be fixed asap together with extra kebindings for all attacks and blocks and an option to make swings only with the mouse.
either make everything free or restrict everything. alot of people complain about this problem especially when they played other melee slashers before.
 

Anabolic Man

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Or a hybrid option for people with a mouse, that do not have thump mouse buttons. So that they can block with the mouse, but can bind a Key that have to be pressed + right mouse to perform a Mid Block. (combo key assignments would be great)

To make a hybrid option possible. it would be important to be able to bind all blocking directions on seperate keys, and that the game will recognize the mousemovement in the settings, if we drag our mouse to the left, right, or upwards and press a Key. So players that want to use the (attack modifiers charge attacks) options, but not have thump mousebuttons, could assign the following keybindings

left block = (look left with the mouse + right mouseclick)
right block = (look right with the mouse + right mouseclick)
Overhead block = (look upwards with the mouse + right mouseclick)
Midblock = Alt

People that have thump mousebuttons could do the following assinments and bind

left block = (Thump mouse button 1)
right block = (Thump mouse button 2)
Midblock = (right mouse button)
overheadblock = (look upwards + right mouse button) or a Key + right mouse button

left swing = Q (or look left + left mouse)
rigth swing =E (or look right + left mouse)
Overhead swing = Hold down middle mouse
Steb= Alt
 
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Anabolic Man

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its an important issue that needs to be fixed asap together with extra kebindings for all attacks and blocks and an option to make swings only with the mouse.
either make everything free or restrict everything. alot of people complain about this problem especially when they played other melee slashers before.
This is very true. A friend got a key and told me that he have used specific options in Chivalery for over 3000h and that he want to be able to make his options, as he prefer it. I can only agree.
Because otherwise he would have to learn everything from scratch and always get imput errors, because he has saved certain keys in the musclememory.

you see many people in the steam forum, that want to have the freedom in the key binding options.



Here a comment on MMORPG

"Were you in beta at the end of November, I was. There needs so much to be added. Literally, the zones are empty... no mobs... a few deer. The ccontrolls needs to improved drastically.

Same counts for the Mouse sensivity. People that will play MO, want to have the same mouse sensivity, as they are used to from other games, and do not want to get fucked up their aim.

There are many Battlefield players who are used to have a different vertical and horizontal mouse sense.

It's about the first impression, and it should be as good as possible. That is why it should have high priority to focus on the freedom in the Keybinding options before the release.

Haven should look beautiful and
and everyone should feel comfortable with their
Key assignments

Perhaps SV should include a description of the option (Attack Modifiers charges Attack), so that people will immediatly know, what this option will change.
 
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Anabolic Man

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Edit : i rewrote my whole Feedback, so that everybody can understand what i mean.
I expressed myself badly and tied to structure it this time.


I now explain all the technical terms and added a small guide for new Players !
 

Anabolic Man

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Walking should be renamed to Walk/feint or Cancel attack. How should new Players know that Walking will cancel an attack ?

Feint can´t be bound on the Thump Mouse Buttons, on mousewheel up or down ! Plz make this possible. We can´t bind Overhead on hold down middle mouse. This should be possible becuase the game should have total freedom for players to choose which keybinding they prefer. We need a separate Key assignment for the Mid Block to use the attack modifiers charge attack Option.
 
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Anabolic Man

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After testing a bit longer, i found out, that a parry from your opponent do not prevent you getting a fast windupswing as it should. You should only get the fast windup swing Animation for a combo if your Swing hits the Target, and not after your opponent parry your swing. Then it should be his turn ! This need to be fixed immediatly !
 

ThaBadMan

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After testing a bit longer, i found out, that a parry from your opponent do not prevent you getting a fast windupswing as it should. You should only get the fast windup swing Animation for a combo if your Swing hits the Target, and not after your opponent parry your swing. Then it should be his turn ! This need to be fixed immediatly !
Good point, in fact getting parried should in that case make the next windup longer and not shorter. But such a change would give too much power to the defensive play thats already king.
 

Anabolic Man

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The middleway would be to just not get a faster Windupswing after a parry. Emagine if you are low HP, because you fight vs 2 Players. Then you opponents can simply go for tradehits, if they can combo after you did a successfull parry, till you are dead. You paary and make a counterattack and your Opponent start a combo after your parry. Both Players will hit each other. I like the fast Windupswings, but this need to be fixed. This would result in Parrytradespam ! In every good swordgame a Player should be able to beat 2 Opponents, if he plays perfectly, and such a mechanic of trading parryswings makes it impossible to prevent the damage.

The agressive Playstyle would be buffed, if you could make a a faster Windupswing after a fully CHarged swing, that have been canceled with STRG, in the right time, when the middle circle begins to glow, to get a faster windupswing after it, if you time it correctly, before the swing loose it´s power, becuase you hold it too long, or if you get the faster animation if you charge your attack for a specific ammount of time and cancel it.

Then we need a Quickfix to be able to bind the Blockingdirections on different Buttons. Otherwise it would make no sense to to use the (attack Modifiers charge attacks) Option, which is really needed. YWith this Option turned on you will get a lot of Imput errors, if you turn arround and want to block mid, if you have to look down + right mouse, while you are turning to the left or right site. With this Option turned on you can´t press a Key + right mouse to perform a mid block, no matter if you are turning to prevent imput errors, as it is possible, if you have turned this option off.
 
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Anabolic Man

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Did SV made the swings slower in the last patch on Feb 15th ? If yes i liked it more how it was before. The speed of the fast windup swings after a parry from the opponent seems to be slower aswell, or am I just imagining it. I did not read anyhing about it in the Patchnotes. That would be good.

It also seems as weapons with a low weight not charge the damage up faster during the normal swings. I think they should charge faster but this should not be the case for the faster windup attacks. Every sword should take arround one second to be fully charged (during the faster windup combo attack) to deal damage, no matter which weight they have, so that US Players can react.
 
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Anabolic Man

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Now some feedback to the different weapons.

Polearms

All Polearems, no matter with handel or blade will hit the ground, if you look in the air and make an overhead, if you play a dwarf ! Plz make the handels a bit shorter ! You not see it well in the Video, but i did not feint a single of the attacks in the Video. They canceled, becuase my blade hit the ground, if i look in the air while making an overhead or right swing.

I think Polearms should not need 2 Skills.




Spears

If a spear is used with both hands you get a free 50/50. It´s a guessing game. You can turn your character in an angle that noone will see the back arm of you while using a spear. (arround 90 degrees to the right when charging the spear)
The only difference in the animation is whether the rear arm protrudes a little further from the body.
You can strave quickly to the left, if you face your opponent, to get a view of the rear arm, but a clever player will of course turn himself away, to hide the view on his rear arm. If a player cannot see the rear arm, there is nothing left to do but block middle and run into the enemy to get a handelhit, to prevent the greatest possible damage, becuase you don´t know if your opponent is charging a mid or an Overhead attack.

That is overpowered, becuase the spear get a free 50/50.
The animation should also differ a little on the forearm.
Then the spear would have to be buffed, so that Players will use the Spear. That´s why the Spear should get a Piercing attack Overhead, if the spear is used with both hands. Shield users should have a slashing Overhead attack.


It is better to have 3 attacks, of which two of them will deal piercing damage, which can be distinguished based on the animation, than 2 indistinguishable attacks. Manye make it possibe to make a jumping overhead piercing attack, if the player press space.

The forehand should grip the spear from above so that the character can stab in the middle, slash from the side and stab from above without having to grip the hand around in the animation.


Hammers

They do a lot of damage but are very slow. Rather make them a bit faster and make them deal a bit less damage. There must be hammers that deal some good damage out of lighter materials. Maybe add the possebility to grap them short, to get lesser Handelhits and make them a bit faster. If you grap them short, they could deal a bit less damage and they would have a shorter Range. (take a look in the linked Thread i added)


Daggers

I think they would be increadible strong (OP) with weakspots, if you can hit an opponent for 80 damage and more and they only cost a few materials. This can´t be properly tested, becuase weakspots are disabled. Maybe make Wealspots only avalible for Bows or don´t make them as strong for melee weapons. Without weakspot the daggers would be bad. Maybe give them damage over time,
so that the players can apply a poison, which poisons the opponent with every third hit, or has a thirty percent chance of poisoning.
This Poison could prevent you from healing and should be able to be cured.

1 Handed Weapons

I think they should get a jumping Overhead option, if you press space during the attack, if you not wear a shield and use light armor.
Maybe even a mid Jump attack with a different animation that cost some extra Stamina.

Shields

I think they are too strong in Groupfights. Maybe make it so, that a Player will get knockdowned, if he get hit by a 2 handed weapon, if he have no stamina left, so that he will deequip his shield before this happens.

I think a Lion Towershield would be too op.


 
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Anabolic Man

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Everybody is fighting but the Players not give much feedback about the combat system. Plz List the weapons which you would like to see buffed and which should be nerfed.
 
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Grasthard

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great feedback here!

the keybing/interface definitely need quite some work, to allow hybrid system between mouse and keybind for directional attack and parry. I think the most important would be the ability to have different button modifiers for attack and block (as suggested)

ps: as a player with 300+ ping, I find quite amusing to see all those subtle techniques for melee combat, while I can barely parry 100% of basic directional attacks which hit me before the release animation of my opponents even starts :D
I guess is mounted combat for me