Extraction Poll

How can we improve Extraction.

  • Minigame #3 Random AI spawns, kill AI = reduce timer. (bandits and wildlife based on location)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    63
  • Poll closed .

DwarfLord

Member
Jun 15, 2021
15
35
13
To quell the growing debate around extractions current state, I have taken the ideas of the community and placed them in this poll.
Hopefully we can use this as a creative solution to properly put our collective data into a nice package for the dev team.

(This is just to gather information properly that may transfer over to the Dev team in a more positive/impactful way.)

Working together to help constructively contribute to the best MMO to grace the internet.
So to everyone who participates; thank you kindly for your contribution.


SIDE NOTE:
- If any further suggestions are given I will add them to the poll.
- You can change your vote at anytime if a new poll seems more viable to you.
- You can reroll your character in game to an Oghmir and instantly multiply your level of badass-ness. (Unbiased)
 
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Turbizzler

Well-known member
May 28, 2020
257
335
63
Fabernum
Make timers vary based on tier of ore/material. Examples;
Tier 1 = 90 seconds
Tier 2 = 120 seconds
Tier 3 = 180 seconds

There's also weird inconsistency in ore per tick when mining too. You get more Tephra per tick, than you do Granum, Saburra or Calx...which doesn't make sense. T1 and T2 ores should have their max resource per tick while mining increased.

The world is large enough that there won't be a huge over supply of materials. Let people play the game, not afking for hours to mine, transport, extract and then refine.
 

Grasthard

Active member
Nov 21, 2020
237
155
43
Okinawa
I voted no change, but for the very simple reason that I won't realistically see any change to that system any time soon. the system is in game and works, radical changes like minigames and such would require a lot of effort (and other changes in other crafting areas), and a lot of other systems not in game yet have priority over it I think
 
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DwarfLord

Member
Jun 15, 2021
15
35
13
I voted no change, but for the very simple reason that I won't realistically see any change to that system any time soon. the system is in game and works, radical changes like minigames and such would require a lot of effort (and other changes in other crafting areas), and a lot of other systems not in game yet have priority over it I think
Yeah for sure. Anything other then reduced times would require more development and resources and thus takes a backseat in the priority list. Rightfully so, it doesn't seem to have gathered any interest. Though I will leave it up mainly to point people here rather then the discord when the topic comes up.
 

Speznat

Well-known member
May 28, 2020
870
1,038
93
Tindrem
wolfszeit.online
I hope they either reduce the Extraction timers or give us a sound that we can tap in again for the next stack while watching youtube.

If we will have a huge playerbase at release than a 5min timer could be a pain in the ass. xD

But the tier based extraction time is also a good idea.
 
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Kokolo

Member
May 3, 2021
96
99
18
I'm ok with the AFK moments in the game as they are. Let's me doodle in my sketchbook and increases the value of items for the time invested. I play to unwind after work anyway. I wouldn't personally want a minigame for that reason (sketching and reading). So for me it's fine even if it stays the way it is. A notification sound (even a character grunt when they load the items in their inventory) would work well to alert you it's time to move on.

That being said I have nothing against shorter timers or tier based timers. If it makes the game more enjoyable for more people let it happen.
 
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lord_yoshi

Member
Oct 3, 2020
82
88
18
Any game mechanic that involves long periods of not actually playing the game is bad game design, but reducing the time to generate materials lessens the impact of losing those materials. I would like to see some kind of minigame to greatly reduce the material extraction timers so players still have the option to AFK extract. I also want to see portable extractors again so people can mine and extract at the same time.

There's also weird inconsistency in ore per tick when mining too. You get more Tephra per tick, than you do Granum, Saburra or Calx...which doesn't make sense. T1 and T2 ores should have their max resource per tick while mining increased.
It makes perfect sense if you know more about the game. You're wrongly applying arbitrary tiers to the rock types. Tephra is the least dense rock, so you can gather more of it per tick. In contrast, Calx and Gabore are denser, so you can gather less per tick. Tephra was the weakest building stone material while Calx and Gabore were the strongest. Woods also work the same way, you can gather more Spongewood per chop compared to Ironwood.
 
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Turbizzler

Well-known member
May 28, 2020
257
335
63
Fabernum
Any game mechanic that involves long periods of not actually playing the game is bad game design, but reducing the time to generate materials lessens the impact of losing those materials. I would like to see some kind of minigame to greatly reduce the material extraction timers so players still have the option to AFK extract. I also want to see portable extractors again so people can mine and extract at the same time.


It makes perfect sense if you know more about the game. You're wrongly applying arbitrary tiers to the rock types. Tephra is the least dense rock, so you can gather more of it per tick. In contrast, Calx and Gabore are denser, so you can gather less per tick. Tephra was the weakest building stone material while Calx and Gabore were the strongest. Woods also work the same way, you can gather more Spongewood per chop compared to Ironwood.
You do realize material and their properties can be rated for different things right? In the extraction and refinement aspect, it is a T3 ore. As you just pointed out, it was a lower tier material for building. I'm not saying Tephra overall is a complete whole high tier item in all aspects, only for extraction/refinement.

Yes, Tephra is a soft ash rock, anyone who learnt about volcanoes in primary school should know that. But, it's also the ore in the game that's extraction tree is one of the main requirements to reach the two best metals in the game. It's nice and everything that a soft rock = easier to mine, if only that logic applied to every aspect in the game, then that debate when it comes to balance would be more viable. But MO is so mix n match when it comes to realism, fantasy and logic that it's balance is off.
 
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lord_yoshi

Member
Oct 3, 2020
82
88
18
You said the rock gathering rates don't make sense, I told you what the logic was, you keep insisting that gathering rates should be based around your arbitrary rock tiers according to what resources the rock can produce. I can guarantee your made up resource tiers make far less sense than "Soft rock = easier to mine."
 
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Konrad

Active member
Feb 24, 2021
111
106
43
Ireland
slower depending on material type/tier with the addition of the optional minigame, we do like to do that shit afk, but sometimes we are doing it 'actively' and it would be nice to do something else that could reduce the timer even by like 20/30 seconds it would be good, the extraction would feel much faster because lets say we would already 'do something for like a minute' and than reduce the timer by a few as well, it would be more energetic and active! 100% Support for this, those minigames are nice to make shit feel less 'long'
 
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Weathermore

Active member
Apr 5, 2021
103
81
28
No mini games. I don't want to play minigames personally. Minigames may be fun for like, 10 hours, until you realize that you will busting up millions of rocks, meaning the minigame would have to be played tens of thousands of times over the lifespan of a character. These are the options that I would change (I'm a full time refiner):

1. Time to break down rocks decreased by at least half. The majority of the time grind should be spent mining. The lower tier ores taking less time is a WONDERFUL idea, and would overall decrease the amount of time you spend watching Netflix in front of the crusher. The best refiners will be running multiple accounts / computers just to get crushing time down. Each of the extraction professions have their own differential on time grind (spawn rates is the biggest time sink with alchemy ingredients & butchering). Mining has a massively compounding time grind (Mining takes around an hour to fill up a horse, followed by 30 minutes for tier 1, time to break down tier 2, + multiple refining clocks), and is overall too long a grind, even though it's incredibly easy to make up to Tungsteel if you just have time to blow.

2. Changes that should be made to mining: the overall number of ore per node should be decreased to around 20% of what a node currently holds, but the time to mine out a node should increase by 5-10x and respawn time increased. So for example, if right now it takes 6 minutes to totally mine out a rock, for around 5,000 units of rock, a rock post change will give you 1,000 units, but will mine out in 30 seconds, and respawn within 25-30 minutes. In this way, miners are always constantly moving and mining becomes an active game instead of a passive game.

3. (This change will likely be fixed with building) for NPC cities, if time to crush change is not fixed, then put double extracting devices in every area so that we can double our time with the risk of losing a bag by not being at crusher. This is an easy way with in game mechanics to fix the problem. When we can build cities, I imagine most guilds will have 2-3 crushers, which fixes a lot of the issue.

4. PVE hotspots should have 'rich nodes' of certain ore, that will have massively increased output, massively increased capacity, or however else they want to balance it. You would clear the monsters, hit the rocks until monsters respawn. This would be an active change that would keep players at PVE/PVP hotspots longer.

5. In a perfect world, the map would marked by 'danger zones', and areas in more dangerous zones would have more ore, and nodes around town would have far less ore. Because we don't have a way to identify map danger zones (no in game map), this change is almost impossible and would lead to mostly confusion.
 
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DwarfLord

Member
Jun 15, 2021
15
35
13
No mini games. I don't want to play minigames personally. Minigames may be fun for like, 10 hours, until you realize that you will busting up millions of rocks, meaning the minigame would have to be played tens of thousands of times over the lifespan of a character. These are the options that I would change (I'm a full time refiner):

1. Time to break down rocks decreased by at least half. The majority of the time grind should be spent mining. The lower tier ores taking less time is a WONDERFUL idea, and would overall decrease the amount of time you spend watching Netflix in front of the crusher. The best refiners will be running multiple accounts / computers just to get crushing time down. Each of the extraction professions have their own differential on time grind (spawn rates is the biggest time sink with alchemy ingredients & butchering). Mining has a massively compounding time grind (Mining takes around an hour to fill up a horse, followed by 30 minutes for tier 1, time to break down tier 2, + multiple refining clocks), and is overall too long a grind, even though it's incredibly easy to make up to Tungsteel if you just have time to blow.

2. Changes that should be made to mining: the overall number of ore per node should be decreased to around 20% of what a node currently holds, but the time to mine out a node should increase by 5-10x and respawn time increased. So for example, if right now it takes 6 minutes to totally mine out a rock, for around 5,000 units of rock, a rock post change will give you 1,000 units, but will mine out in 30 seconds, and respawn within 25-30 minutes. In this way, miners are always constantly moving and mining becomes an active game instead of a passive game.

3. (This change will likely be fixed with building) for NPC cities, if time to crush change is not fixed, then put double extracting devices in every area so that we can double our time with the risk of losing a bag by not being at crusher. This is an easy way with in game mechanics to fix the problem. When we can build cities, I imagine most guilds will have 2-3 crushers, which fixes a lot of the issue.

4. PVE hotspots should have 'rich nodes' of certain ore, that will have massively increased output, massively increased capacity, or however else they want to balance it. You would clear the monsters, hit the rocks until monsters respawn. This would be an active change that would keep players at PVE/PVP hotspots longer.

5. In a perfect world, the map would marked by 'danger zones', and areas in more dangerous zones would have more ore, and nodes around town would have far less ore. Because we don't have a way to identify map danger zones (no in game map), this change is almost impossible and would lead to mostly confusion.
Thank you for taking the time to write this. The poll is only including options for extraction and not mining at the moment, however I appreciate the suggestions you give. I will add the option to que multiple stacks or have multiple extractors/portables. The mining aspect could use it's own suggestion poll to help collect data. I personally think the options you listed would create a fresh pace for the game and it's be interesting to see what everyone else thinks.
 

Olympeus

New member
Apr 30, 2021
25
23
3
Nice post.

Skill-based minigames would be pretty sweet for all of the crafting professions.

A lot of the depth & skill associated with MO1 crafting had to do with the availability or scarcity of information. Now that players have had 15 years to solve those systems the information is freely available for most professions, which means that someone who spent 15 years accumulating crafting knowledge is on the same "skill" level as someone playing for 1 month with access to an emulator.

In general, I don't think it's practical or possible for developers to rely on scarcity of information to add depth to their game systems because that information will be revealed in a matter of weeks or months. In the case of MO2, where a lot of the crafting is being built upon MO1, a lot of the information is already out there.

I think Mortal Online 2 is already in a good position to have a deep and complex crafting system base on factors such as, diverse and useful raw materials; diverse and viable finished goods; steady demand (full loot PvP); supply exclusively from players (vs. NPCs), localize brokers vs. a global auction house; game subscription to eliminate F2P bot farming and gold sellers, etc. etc.

Where I think Mortal Online 2 can distinguish itself on top of an already great foundation for crafting is by adding skill into the crafting through the use of minigames.
 
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Rorry

Well-known member
May 30, 2020
1,010
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Kansas
Nice post.

Skill-based minigames would be pretty sweet for all of the crafting professions.

A lot of the depth & skill associated with MO1 crafting had to do with the availability or scarcity of information. Now that players have had 15 years to solve those systems the information is freely available for most professions, which means that someone who spent 15 years accumulating crafting knowledge is on the same "skill" level as someone playing for 1 month with access to an emulator.

In general, I don't think it's practical or possible for developers to rely on scarcity of information to add depth to their game systems because that information will be revealed in a matter of weeks or months. In the case of MO2, where a lot of the crafting is being built upon MO1, a lot of the information is already out there.

I think Mortal Online 2 is already in a good position to have a deep and complex crafting system base on factors such as, diverse and useful raw materials; diverse and viable finished goods; steady demand (full loot PvP); supply exclusively from players (vs. NPCs), localize brokers vs. a global auction house; game subscription to eliminate F2P bot farming and gold sellers, etc. etc.

Where I think Mortal Online 2 can distinguish itself on top of an already great foundation for crafting is by adding skill into the crafting through the use of minigames.
Please, no mini games. They are stupidly annoying after the first 500 times you have to play them.
All the crafting info for MO1 was available within a very short time from data-mining, there was no depth in any crafting but alchemy, as there isn't now, only difficulty/ease (i.e. expense) of acquiring materials, adding a mini game doesn't add depth, just annoyance factor.
Besides that, it is very hard to imagine SV coming up with a mini game that would actually reflect player skill, rather than fps or ping or latency.
 

DwarfLord

Member
Jun 15, 2021
15
35
13
Please, no mini games. They are stupidly annoying after the first 500 times you have to play them.
All the crafting info for MO1 was available within a very short time from data-mining, there was no depth in any crafting but alchemy, as there isn't now, only difficulty/ease (i.e. expense) of acquiring materials, adding a mini game doesn't add depth, just annoyance factor.
Besides that, it is very hard to imagine SV coming up with a mini game that would actually reflect player skill, rather than fps or ping or latency.
The mini game choices that were suggested would all be optional, meaning if you'd rather afk then you would choose to just get the current rates. Of course this is all with consideration that a minigame of any sort is not required as the backbone but perhaps just a cool feature players may want the option of doing in the years to come.
 

Fisher(Sath)

Active member
Apr 6, 2021
166
125
43
Make it work like butchery. I don't see a reason not to other than spiteful design. The extraction timer seems to just be in the game because the GMs want a chance to screw with said extractors before they can get their loot. It's already heavy as crap, hard to get back in large quantities, and highly trafficked. I don't see the real reason why it needs a timer.
 
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Turbizzler

Well-known member
May 28, 2020
257
335
63
Fabernum
You said the rock gathering rates don't make sense, I told you what the logic was, you keep insisting that gathering rates should be based around your arbitrary rock tiers according to what resources the rock can produce. I can guarantee your made up resource tiers make far less sense than "Soft rock = easier to mine."
In terms of their overall balance and how it affects things in-game, it doesn't make sense. If you took the time to realize this is a video game, not real life, and that the logic in MO is so counter-intuitive to mechanic design and balance, then just maybe you'd understand context a bit better.

The resource tiers aren't exactly made up, it's just a label given to make it easier to identify materials for their specific uses, value and how they interact with certain systems. Welcome to economics and material grade. I thought a guy who probably has a pet rock, would understand this.