Archery feed back

Tzone

Well-known member
May 16, 2021
2,468
1,446
113
With aiming tech and marksmen ship in game right now I will like to give my feed back. Most of it will just be information not suggestions for players or devs to use as they like.

All of the info is from a Veela dexfighter/archery build.


Aiming tech is pretty nice, Allows long bows to gain back stamina when standing still which form experience is really needed if you want to keep up DPS because the bows are stamina hungry. It allows the player to take time to choose a shot as well as you arent standing there at no stamina gain. Depending on the armor class you are up against you need to squeeze out all the stamina you can and go below 50% since iron bone is hit for mid 20s. So keeping DPS up is important. Also it helps for stamina loss while having to move/strafe which you might need to do at times.
Maybe the veela stamina regen while still clade is helping with this.


Marksmenship is decent, 90% of them time you dont have the option to waist stamina trying to go for a head shot in a team fight because the window of when you will have a opportunity to loose a arrow at a stationary or when the ling of sight is clear is short. You can hit moving players if they are running predictably which is a common thing but you still have friendly's that may block the ling of sight. But when you do the damage is worth using broad heads which are right now the only arrows that are viable for the weakspot. Of course you are doing less damage and DPS over all compared to long bow arrows if you are using broad heads.
You can hit a mage in the head with longbow arrow for like 54 or you can use a broad head and hit them for like 64 if you get a weak spot 2/3rds of the time.

I really hate RNG in games were its skill based but having the weakspots at around 2 out of 3 shots is viable and decent enough to be able to count on. So marksmen is really nice to have. It increases the skill ceiling for archers to have something to train towards.


Controlled Aiming isnt in the game right now but from my experience so far I can tell you its going to be absolutely worthless to have. The reason is that you would only need to hold breath with when side strafing which you would try your best not to do because it waist so much stamina that you need to keep DPS to be on par of worth having in a group compared to a fighter. Walking backwards and forwards there are some gimmicks you can use to hit targets that arent doing anything too crazy. So the only time you would need to control sway is also during the time you try your best to avoid for other reasons.

Its just a waste of primary points. If the devs made it mandatory to have for some reason then I would prob quit archery even tho I really want to play it. 400 points is just too much to just be viable in archery. I would make it a secondary some where in the skill tree of they want hold breath to be content of some sort. Even if it was secondary I dont see people ever using it if they are higher skilled, it seems to me like a newb trap.
Archery right now is now only somewhat viable, With higher skilled players that will eventually exist it will be more viable due to marksmenship but again other players will learn counters and tactics against archers. I just really hope devs are not planning on adjusting stuff to fit in the breathing mechanic. You almost never see archers anymore despite being very prevalent before the sway was added.



If the devs want a 4th primary for archers I would ask for less stamina spent while moving with a bow pulled. It doesnt seem like much but with how much stamina you need to spend to keep DPS up to worth while levels in group fights it would pull some people over to spending 400 points instead of 300. Right now you are just not viable to the group unless you can also use a melee weapon as a archer. So I hope the devs keep that in mind.


So far my see that at Iron bone level of armor archery is some what viable, just under what damage a melee player could do. Bone tissue armor archers have the slight edge in increase value for group fights. For light/mage armor, Archery is very strong hitting for 34s on the torso and for 50s on the head. But at steel is when archery takes the cliff dive, I dont think archery will be valuable to have in a group against steel armored players. You hit for 12s on steel so you would absolutely need marksmanship to even be viable against it.

Something I would like to see which would really help out archers is having the charge timer value slightly lower (quicker to charge similar to the melee changes) but have a time to knock back a arrow exist. So players can pull back the bow 75% faster but they take a bit of time to get a new arrow knocked. This could possible make the over all time slightly longer to balance it out like instead of 3.2 seconds to knock and pull back a long bow its now 3.5 seconds but you pull back the bow in 2.4 seconds as a example. The issue is how small the window of opportunity is presented so quickening the time you can get to a decent draw will really help against higher tier armors.
 
Last edited:

Kaemik

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2020
1,755
1,217
113
We were just discussing this in Discord. I think there are a few changes I would make.

Weakspot is dead, now there is a flat armor pen value for archery only (Melee already has blunt if you want good armor pen)
For melee, make it so you do more damage when attacking the back half of your target (They did this in Darkfall many years ago so it should be very achievable in UE4 or 5)
For shortbows, lower sway and increase damage/armor pen the closer in to your target you are.
For assyms and longbows increase accuracy/range when standing still

Other relevant change:

Currently Str gives 1 stam per point, dex 1 stam per point, con 2 stam per point.

Remove stam from strength (Big tall strong guys aren't endurance runners anyway. I say this from IRL experience.) Make dex 2 stam per strength. This doesn't change any meta build DRASTICALLY other than dex mages and a moderate buff to alvarin.
 

Tzone

Well-known member
May 16, 2021
2,468
1,446
113
@Kaemik
I think the devs were trying to make the short bow have better sway since its shorter but in actuality the short bow sway is a bit higher skill floor then the long bows. The long bows have longer sway paths but it takes the same time to complete the sway path as the short bow so slower sway.

The should do somthing about the short bow sway a bit. just dont want nerfs to longbow since archery is already in the least valued for group fights state.

Weakspot just raising the skill ceiling allowing the people who can get head shots to do alot of damage. Its not good for the majority of archers. The damage model with out weakspots is poor for archers. It seems like they balanced around weakspots which is a 1 out of 10 arrows thing due to not having much opportunity window for them.

Dex doesn't really contribute much to archery since Marksmen is the vast majority of the crit at 50% of the around 2/3rs hit crit ratio. I would like to see somthing done to dex more then what is going on now.


Edit: One more thing, I feel alot of the damage issues could be solved when the fletching system comes if It lets us make arrows that do more damage against armor at the cost of less damage over all.
 
Last edited:

Kaemik

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2020
1,755
1,217
113
Oh for sure, my suggestion buffs both longbow and shorbow (and even assyms) just in seperate ways. Longbows and assyms get better for sitting at a range raining arrows into enemies. Shortbows get better for playing close in to the target but out of melee reach. All of them get flat armor pen as opposed to weakspots removing the RNG factor from armor pen with Dex.

Archery is in a really bad spot right now. The only thing that had it semi-balanced before was it's 100 point investment. It was still extremely non-meta to have anyone continue with archery once melee fighting had started. Now it's a much higher investment, and weaker than it was before. It's insane.
 

Tzone

Well-known member
May 16, 2021
2,468
1,446
113
Oh for sure, my suggestion buffs both longbow and shorbow (and even assyms) just in seperate ways. Longbows and assyms get better for sitting at a range raining arrows into enemies. Shortbows get better for playing close in to the target but out of melee reach. All of them get flat armor pen as opposed to weakspots removing the RNG factor from armor pen with Dex.

Archery is in a really bad spot right now. The only thing that had it semi-balanced before was it's 100 point investment. It was still extremely non-meta to have anyone continue with archery once melee fighting had started. Now it's a much higher investment, and weaker than it was before. It's insane.
Yeah I agree over all almost every person is better off being a melee fighter when fighting starts. It would be impossible to be a 400 point archer and not be less valued then a melee fighter to your group.

I see my self right now getting a little bit less DPS as melee fighters while being able to pressure the weaker targets or mages at range. But 50% of the time I have to switch to melee to contribute, also because it uses more stam just to keep the DPS up to standard to be contributing to the fight that I switch to melee just to stam up before going back to fighting with the bow.
 

Kaemik

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2020
1,755
1,217
113
Right. It's good for if you have healing superiority and you want to force your opponent make the first move / fight you on ground of your choosing, and it's good for dealing with MAs. MAs themselves are good for harrassing melees with no bows but even the 100 point build can screw up a horse well enough if they do have a bow. They're really best at dealing with other mounted builds for the moment and other mounted builds are all trash and based on my damage tests, looking to remain so against any opponent with decent armor even after mount armor makes it in.

Archers should have enough damage to remain strong if they are focusing soft targets after the melee has already started. Currently, you're better off with some kind of melee flanker/diver as a mage killer than archers.
 

Tzone

Well-known member
May 16, 2021
2,468
1,446
113
Some more archery feed back. Im using a 107-108 bow that hits for around 88-92 in the head dummy.

Im dropping marksmen. Its of no use because it only works or broad head weak spots and broad head arrows cant not keep the DPS up to be viable in team fights. Probably not even 1v1 but those are a bit better at allowing you to get head shots off.

I can hit a mage in the head for 50s with a lba (long bow arrow) 40s with a broad head unless its crits then it would be 62-64. You can land a torso for 40s on a mage with lb but its 30s with a bha (broad head arrow). On mage the damage for getting head shots is similar to if you were using long bows anyway. You really just want fast follow ups on mage to stop them from channeling and with broad heads it causes you to need to charge longer bha then a lba to get a decent arch and damage output.

For people who wear higher tier armor like ironbone you will be doing 20s-30 on them and up to 40-50 on the head with lba. With bha you will most of the time get 16s in damage which most people can just ignore its so minimal. 3 arrows in the 9 seconds it takes you shoot a player you can half heath most builds with lba. But with bha that becomes 5 arrows you need to land for that to happen in a fast moving chaotic fight.

Using broad heads will just gimp yourself on long bow I've experienced and since longbow arrows dont proc crits for weakspot I dont think long bow archers will have use for marksmenship. I will keep practicing and trying to land long bow arrows on heads but even then I dont think I would trade the all around damage and arc for 10-20 more damage to the head.
 
Last edited:

Kaemik

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2020
1,755
1,217
113
Yeah marksman is a pretty easy dump. Headshots are the easiest shots to miss entirely. Outside a few PVE situations like a direwolf charging at you head on you are better-off aiming at center mass than the head. A higher chance for RNG damage pen on a skillshot?

Unless you are freaking Legolas, there are better things to do with 100 primary points in most situations.
 

Tzone

Well-known member
May 16, 2021
2,468
1,446
113
I would put a hundred points into marksmenship if it didnt make me have a trade off of normal damage and arc for the 2/3rds crit for 62 damage on a head.
 

Rorry

Well-known member
May 30, 2020
1,018
531
113
44
Kansas
Marksmanship works better for MA's. For big bosses and by using asym bows, and once weak spots are balanced, it should increase damage output
 

Tzone

Well-known member
May 16, 2021
2,468
1,446
113
Further playing and testing I feel like I need to double down on that archery needs a shorter charge timer (pull back bow quicker). The DPS can stay the same using knocking the arrow as a delay. I believe with enough skill archery can be viable up unto ironbone (unless they are Oghmir with the natural pierce resist). Fletching would solve endgame issues where I hope there could be a system of ignore pen defense based off materials of the arrow v armor.

It would need to be a skill to pull back the bow faster which would further separate archery from everyone else. As of now I only have around 150ish points to 100 out archery and aiming tech. I really dont want to have to put another 90-100 into archery and would prefer it be a secondary after aiming tech.

Another skill I would like to see is less stamina drain while walking with a bow pulled. This could be a primary.


Broadhead arrows with MS were cool for a while but no one is going to get head shots unless by surprise, luck, or quake skills. very easy to make it hard to get head shots. MS affecting LBA might be needed in some way but having 100 damage done because a mage luckily stood still might be over board.

LBA are meta right now I would say as you at most only get 20 less damage on heads compared to a WS BHA and about 10-20 more for every other shot you land. Against light armor or nakeds LBA just do so much damage you can not justify shooting people with broadheads.

Also with LBA the arc is so much better that you can charge less to put down range a arrow faster then BHA while having more damage still. I use this against mages a lot who stand still. I would not have enough time for a full shot, the range of a broad head means I would have to aim higher with a slower arrow which has a long flight path due to the arc. And there is a minimum amount of time you need to charge to get the arrows to go up to a certain distance so aiming higher cant only do so much.

I would like to see MS some how affect LBA but I really dislike RNG damage when the difference is such a distance between min and max.



Archery needs love but I dont want to say, give more damage, remove X/Y/Z.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Snasen