Real time combat

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Lazyactor

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Mar 21, 2021
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Honestly...its a joke. Mordhau has set the standard for real time melee combat. MO2 and any melee action combat game these days aren't even getting close to that standard. I understand that MO and MO2 lean towards group combat but that's no excuse not to have a semi decent melee system that facilitates 1v1 and 1vx. What we have now is just sad.

ima outline what I think needs to be improved upon sooner rather than later. Most people are about to have their first impressions of the game and even if you call it a test you only get 1 first impression.

right away install some turn caps. Jesus watching people start swings facing away from you and bringing them all the way around looks janky as hell. If melee combat cant be done without hiding the animations of your melee combat then its a bad combat system.

Feinting is a joke. Costs basically nothing. does basically nothing. why feint if I still have to charge up a super telegraphed swing to do damage.

Get some stam penalties for missed swings ASAP. Missing a fully charged swing costs you nothing. Not only can you still block incoming attacks near instantly after missing but there is no stamina penalty for throwing your big ass axe around like a moron.

Charging directional attacks for damage. This is just bad in general. Its not only a dated system it just doesn't work in making the combat flow well and feel good. Because of the charging system it promotes parrying to riposte for damage. Even in group we just look for attacks to parry so we dont have to charge.

Heres is some basic now industry standard ways to do melee combat. welcome to 2021.

Timed blocking. Mordhau has shown that directional blocking is subpar in gameplay. Having a timed block allows you to dictate the flow of combat and determine which player you want to have initiative. Lets look at the current system. IT has a timed parry in the block. This is fine I suppose. Hold a block to long and you switch to blocking state which has some chip damage in it. You also dont get frame advantage if you hold your block up to long and miss the parry window. However good luck ever missing that parry window.

The window is not only super forgiving which is probably a good idea in an mmo. It's also to easy to drop your block and reblock near instantly if the opponent holds the attack to long. Another words the attacker cant force the penalty of blocking an attack because you can just reblock right away. It's silly.

Ideally we want a system where you look at the blade itself and you have a block that will defend you for roughly .25 seconds. This number can be adjusted of course. Why? simple, its an active system that makes you feel as though you are actually blocking the attack not some silly calculation. Physically moving your blade to intercept an attack is a lot more engaging than holding it left right up or down and waiting to hear a sound.

it also allows us to give players options for circumventing a skilled blocker. sure the block catches all attacks that you can see on the screen but it's also timed. Meaning you can easily get punished for missing a block or panic blocking. Your block is good but it also has weaknesses. We can adjust the time you have to wait before you can block again. Ideally this number is made so that if you block an attack correctly you go into the riposte state but are also able to block again right away. So you can deal with multiple opponents swinging at you.

On the flip side should you fall for a feint or block to early you cant block again right away which allows your opponent to "punish" your mistake. Giving them the opportunity to capitalize and do damage.

In the same vein attacking and blocking and feinting should all have varying costs to stamina. Attacking and landing on your opponent should have almost no stamina cost. Attacking and landing should have none. Attacking and whiffing should cost you far more stamina.

Blocking properly should cost you some stamina, Blocking and whiffing should cost you quite a bit more. Blocking lighter weapons that favor speed should be less taxing than blocking heavier and slower weapons. It allows players to pick preferred play styles and opens up the meta making it both deep and dynamic.

Crafting already lends to this idea. You can make all sorts of weapons that can be heavy even as one handed or light as two handed. So many different variations to craft but almost no reason to try anything out. You are just looking to maximize damage and minimize stamina costs. Its a stale meta and a waste of IMO the best crafting system ever offered in any online game.

I can go on but im running out of time so I will edit in more critiques later.

In closing Mordhau set the standard. The meta for both group and single combat in the game is incredibly deep. Much more deep than what is currently offered in MO2 and any game using the same outdated directional combat system. The weapons in MO2 like Mordhau are physical objects. You can manipulate swing timing to vary your offense and even the angles of attacks. In MO2 there is some of this. you can manipulate your camera to make attacks faster but you cant make them slower. IE (accelerating or dragging) because of the outdated charging attacks and directional blocking being utilized.

Look im not saying copy paste another games system. It wouldnt work and would be lazy for MO2. What I am saying is that Mordhau pioneered the next gen melee combat system and it would be foolish not to try to incorporate as much of that deep and engaging system as would fit in MO2 and work well. I wager that MO2 is better situated to expand and innovate on those ideas far better than anything currently out on the market. You dont have to sacrifice 1v1 and 1vx to have an engaging system for all forms of combat.
 

Bernfred

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Sep 12, 2020
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your letter is invalid because MO is a single server game and you can only go so far that people with 350ms ping can parry and attack too.
there is a ping normalization system that works quite ok and tries to even out the ping.
 

Teknique

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Jun 15, 2020
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your letter is invalid because MO is a single server game and you can only go so far that people with 350ms ping can parry and attack too.
there is a ping normalization system that works quite ok and evens out the ping.
Please don't bump threads with the "t" word in it.
 
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BleckCat

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Jul 17, 2020
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Combat system is impressive. Pings even around the world. Combat feel slower, but good for all. No teleportin aussies.
 

Lazyactor

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Mar 21, 2021
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your letter is invalid because MO is a single server game and you can only go so far that people with 350ms ping can parry and attack too.
there is a ping normalization system that works quite ok and tries to even out the ping.


Your right its perfect the way it is and this is the most we can expect out of it. This is the best the devs can do.

Jesus is that your real opinion? This is the best they can do?
 

Lazyactor

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Mar 21, 2021
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Combat system is impressive. Pings even around the world. Combat feel slower, but good for all. No teleportin aussies.

are we playing the same beta test? Did you read anything? Your right this is the best they can do.

Is that your real opinion? this is the best we can hope for?
 
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Lazyactor

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Mar 21, 2021
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All the responses to me so far are complete wastes of time. You guys didnt even try to engage with the opinion I expressed. You just stated nonsense and made me question your reading comprehension. 0/10 boring.
 

Bernfred

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Sep 12, 2020
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Your right its perfect the way it is and this is the most we can expect out of it. This is the best the devs can do.

Jesus is that your real opinion? This is the best they can do?
1. the combat is still a bit work in progress but no big changes will come the combat alpha is over
2. you are not the first person with this unfitting ideas and even better ideas
 

Lazyactor

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Mar 21, 2021
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1. the combat is still a bit work in progress but no big changes will come the combat alpha is over
2. you are not the first person with this unfitting ideas and even better ideas

1. Hence my suggestions.....you know feedback...
2.explain your position then, how do you see it as unfitting? How is it not workable. how is the most popular and innovative system in any melee combat game to date unfitting? What are the better ideas? Did you read anything?

If you are gonna engage with my thread then engage. Stop being lazy it makes you seem like a fanboy who will disagree with any critic of the game. I am for one open to supporting better ideas. You however haven't provided anything to be open to except an intense dislike of your attitude.
 

Bernfred

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Sep 12, 2020
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1. Hence my suggestions.....you know feedback...
2.explain your position then, how do you see it as unfitting? How is it not workable. how is the most popular and innovative system in any melee combat game to date unfitting? What are the better ideas? Did you read anything?

If you are gonna engage with my thread then engage. Stop being lazy it makes you seem like a fanboy who will disagree with any critic of the game. I am for one open to supporting better ideas. You however haven't provided anything to be open to except an intense dislike of your attitude.

we had hundred of forum sides over the combat and the discord is and was flooded with it. i just use this thread to explain it to people but all your input is basically not worth because you didnt thought about the single server fact and its an MMO where teamfight and loot matters. you have other suggestions who are not fitting so why response to that.
 

Lazyactor

New member
Mar 21, 2021
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we had hundred of forum sides over the combat and the discord is and was flooded with it. i just use this thread to explain it to people but all your input is basically not worth because you didnt thought about the single server fact and its an MMO where teamfight and loot matters. you have other suggestions who are not fitting so why response to that.

is English your second language? Its fine but I would care to know cause I cant make sense of quite a bit of what you wrote or what your point is.
 

Bernfred

Well-known member
Sep 12, 2020
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Yeah I noticed. I dont think you have an actual opinion. I think you just saw a chance to put down someone for not being a fanboy such as yourself. Waste of time.
here is what i wanted: save you and others from being trapped in a hamster wheel for month and than realizing that all your effort was not worth anything.
i have opinions to your suggestions but i wont write it down here.
 

cerqo

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2021
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If they implemented these changes the game would degress even further past the godawful combat it has now. Turncaps are probably the most dogshit game mechanic ever.

90% of the changes you are suggesting are to limit something and would make the game more clunky and unresponsive.

Fixing the awful combat is pretty easy but its unlikely SV will do it because it is the only thing giving the illusion that prediction is somewhat working.

Movement speed needs to be increased by a lot. Swing release speed needs to get increased by a lot. And lastly and most importantly, the braindead 0 skill blocking needs to get nerfed to the ground and have its radius reduced. When it comes to blocking i probably agree with you, an aim based system like Mordhau would probably work better and not be as braindeadly skilless as the current one. Anything other than what we have now would be better IMO. You lose nothing for playing like a blockwhore and you gain ABSOLUTELY nothing for playing offensive.

The reason they made these systems such a joke compared to the last game is because they cant (because its technologically impossible) fix the prediction system so they slow it down so much that it looks fixed because the server has more time to update.

To sum up.

3 things:
Huge increase to movement speed
Increase to swing speed
MASSIVE overhaul of the blocking system < most important point
 
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Valoran

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May 28, 2020
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Most of what you're suggesting is completely incompatible with the game, and even if it were possible to have things like timed blocks work well with a large variance in latency (It's not) Mordhau's combat is not the shining gem you make it out to be.

The entire game is based around "tricking" your opponent to block early so you can get free damage, which is a very shallow and boring system in my opinion. This is coming from someone with over 500 hours in Mordhau, I enjoy the game but I don't want its mechanics in Mortal.

I agree with implementing a solution to the spinning problem, but turn caps have been tested before and are not a flawless solution.

Lastly, you will likely find more success when participating in civil discussion instead of immediately belittling anyone who disagrees with you. Quite frankly I didn't consider your post worth replying to due to your obviously very aggressive comments, but have left this comment here for others to read.
 

Valoran

Well-known member
May 28, 2020
363
432
63
If they implemented these changes the game would degress even further past the godawful combat it has now. Turncaps are probably the most dogshit game mechanic ever.

90% of the changes you are suggesting are to limit something and would make the game more clunky and unresponsive.

Fixing the awful combat is pretty easy but its unlikely SV will do it because it is the only thing giving the illusion that prediction is somewhat working.

Movement speed needs to be increased by a lot. Swing release speed needs to get increased by a lot. And lastly and most importantly, the braindead 0 skill blocking needs to get nerfed to the ground and have its radius reduced. When it comes to blocking i probably agree with you, an aim based system like Mordhau would probably work better and not be as braindeadly skilless as the current one. Anything other than what we have now would be better IMO. You lose nothing for playing like a blockwhore and you gain ABSOLUTELY nothing for playing offensive.

The reason they made these systems such a joke compared to the last game is because they cant (because its technologically impossible) fix the prediction system so they slow it down so much that it looks fixed because the server has more time to update.

To sum up.

3 things:
Huge increase to movement speed
Increase to swing speed
MASSIVE overhaul of the blocking system < most important point
There are many existing threads explaining why you can't simply boost the movement speed, make the swing release faster or decrease the blocking arc.


Doing these things will introduce massive problems and make the game borderline unplayable for a lot of people.

What we have now is almost a miracle, as people from all over the world can participate in real time combat and even those with 300 ping can be highly competitive.

The solutions they have implemented to make this possible are extremely elegant and finely tuned to allow this to happen, current values have not been chosen at random, we're essentially operating at the minimum spec required for one world wide server to work, and to not give people living in the same country as the server enormous advantages due to their low latency.
 

cerqo

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2021
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There are many existing threads explaining why you can't simply boost the movement speed, make the swing release faster or decrease the blocking arc.


Doing these things will introduce massive problems and make the game borderline unplayable for a lot of people.

What we have now is almost a miracle, as people from all over the world can participate in real time combat and even those with 300 ping can be highly competitive.

The solutions they have implemented to make this possible are extremely elegant and finely tuned to allow this to happen, current values have not been chosen at random, we're essentially operating at the minimum spec required for one world wide server to work, and to not give people living in the same country as the server enormous advantages due to their low latency.

People with 300 ping have always been competitive and borderline had an advantage. What u say is pretty moot.
 

Avenoma

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Jan 14, 2021
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MO2 and any melee action combat game these days aren't even getting close to that standard.
lmao, just ask the devs to tune the AI up and F the noob who cant parry yet...They just have slow timing right now so we can do things, like not get hacked to death by a faster, superior form of hacking shit in a computer sim >.>
 
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